Tastyworks A New Brokerage Firm

[Noah Katz]

Thanks for the responses, I see that many are in the same boat as me - if they're so good, why can't we find more people using them?

 

I dug around and here's some more info which makes me feel better about them (I only want them for execution, don't need fancy tools for analysis as I'm using SO for that)

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/investing/comments/4kueu6/opinions_on_tradier/

 

Went through 10 pages of google hits and that's about it.

 

As one article said, maybe they're not mentioned much because their use is through their API via various other platforms.

 

The discussion here https://www.elitetrader.com/et/threads/tradier-brokerage.284178/

 

about where they send orders is a bit worrying, but I don't know if it applies to small fry like us, or whether the info is current

Edited February 2, 2017 by Noah Katz

[Kim]

Some members posted feedback:

https://steadyoptions.com/forums/forum/topic/3318-tradier-brokerage-special-offer/

 

Why there is not as much information available? I guess they are not as good in marketing and hype as Sosnoff.. At $40/month, I would give it a try, definitely before tastyworks. I spoke with their CEO few times on phone, he sounds like a decent and honest guy who managed to build a great platform without too much hype.

[Kim]

1 hour ago, 4REAL said:

Cost of transaction is not everything

 

Some of the things I consider before opening acc:

 

1. Solvency of the broker, I guess if you change from TOS or IB, you won't improve yourself.

 

2. Liquidity/ Fills, say you do 1000 contracts (or 500 spreads) per month and have to pay an average of 0.01 more (compared to IB or TOS) to get filled, your monthly cost would be 40$/month flat fee + 500$ 

 

3. Platform

 

 

1. and 2. are holding me back to open an account for now.

But if you do 1000 contracts, you will pay $750 with IB (much more with TOS), so even with slightly worse fills (which is still questionable) you will still save money.

[Noah Katz]

Good to hear, thanks, Kim.

[asteroids]

Wanted to share my experience with Tastyworks, I've been trading with a small account there for about a couple weeks now. The commissions are great, $1.15/contract to open, $0.15/contract to close, no ticket charge. Depending on what instrument you are trading, the fills are excellent if you are trading highly liquid stocks, fb, spy, qqq, and I mean really good, better than IB for this type of liquidity. For other instruments it does get worse, but still good. In my opinion it is far better than TOS and can compete with IB.

The tastyworks platform windows version, well, still has quite a few bugs they need to work on, sometimes my order won't cancel for example, or it does cancel but I am not notified. Sometimes I put in an order but it doesn't appear as submitted but it was. The web platform is great. I always end up using it to make sure everything went through as it should. I expect them to continue working hard on the desktop version.

 

[Guest Dillon Tusillo]

I wasn't sure but read some of the information on http://reviewtastyworks.com , signed up, and haven't regretted it since. Fees are reasonable, especially for smaller traders. Orders fill great. And the drag and drop system for contract placement and planning is fantastic. I'm happy.

[Guest Tastyworks]

Tom started Tastyworks because the new CEO of TD Ameritrade would not honor the agreement he had with Fred Tomczek that he be pail 6 Million a year not to open a brokerage firm, he did not want to open another brokerage firm but his CFO Christy talked him into it

[Guest John]

Unsure if they trade there own money? Demo account or venture money they use as a tastytrade account. Odd how the accounts for different shows like Katie and Nick started with the same balance. Tony actually emailed me that he shares account with Tom. They also did an amazon trade on tastyworks prior to official sec brokerage date. Must be demo trading.  Refuses to show p/l as Tom has been short the market at 1550. They make money as creating businesses inside the space not trading results. Stay clear of the nonsense.

[Leela]

Yeah, who knows if they really make any money. I've heard Tom say he's been losing money all year so many times over the years (because he's always short the market and carrying negative delta's) that he probably really is losing money - always. But I will say, TastyWorks is a fantastic platform, I love it. Certainly better than E*Trade and Fidelity that I also have. I'm just here to learn more since i'm not 100% satisfied with TastyTrade.

[Maji]

A big thank you to @LloydC247 for helping me out.

I wrote to tastyworks regarding fills. Here is what TT wrote back... I am posting it here so that other members can read it and hopefully it will help. I will highlight/bold the takeaway...
 

Quote

Thank you for the screenshots. The straddle trade that you are trying to place is a spread trade. The quotes that you receive from our platform are the national best bid and best offer from 18 exchanges across the US. The problem is that once you submit a spread trade, such as your straddle trade, that trade can only be placed on one of the 18 exchanges. This limits the number of market makers who are able to see the trade. One option for you would be to cancel and then resubmit the order in the hopes that you get the trade shifted to another exchange where it may have a better chance to get filled. Additionally, order entry time also determines who will get a fill and who will not. If 100 clients all submit an order to buy a straddle at the same price, the priority will be given to the client that submitted the order first. If only 30 orders to sell the straddle are submitted then obviously the first 30 out of the 100 would get the fill first and the other 70 would not get a fill. These are the potential issues that you could be seeing that are preventing you from receiving an order fill.

 

[Kim]

On 2/5/2018 at 6:21 PM, Maji said:

A big thank you to @LloydC247 for helping me out. Here is what TT wrote back... I am posting it here so that other members can read it and hopefully it will help. I will highlight/bold the takeaway...

Thank you for the screenshots. The straddle trade that you are trying to place is a spread trade. The quotes that you receive from our platform are the national best bid and best offer from 18 exchanges across the US. The problem is that once you submit a spread trade, such as your straddle trade, that trade can only be placed on one of the 18 exchanges. This limits the number of market makers who are able to see the trade. One option for you would be to cancel and then resubmit the order in the hopes that you get the trade shifted to another exchange where it may have a better chance to get filled. Additionally, order entry time also determines who will get a fill and who will not. If 100 clients all submit an order to buy a straddle at the same price, the priority will be given to the client that submitted the order first. If only 30 orders to sell the straddle are submitted then obviously the first 30 out of the 100 would get the fill first and the other 70 would not get a fill. These are the potential issues that you could be seeing that are preventing you from receiving an order fill.

This is the big difference between IB and other brokers. And this is what TT won't tell you normally. IB smart routing - https://www.interactivebrokers.com/en/index.php?f=1685:

• Unlike smart routers from other online brokers, IB SmartRouting never routes and forgets about your order. It continuously evaluates fast changing market conditions and dynamically re-routes all or parts of your order seeking to achieve optimal execution and maximize your rebate.
• IB SmartRouting represents each leg of a spread order independently and submits each leg at the best possible venue.

 

 

[cwelsh]

I've signed up for a Tastyworks account and have a small balance there trading alongside IB.  I did this because their commissions are 1/3 cheaper (.10 vs. .15) on IB, which can make a large difference.

 

Their software is not as intuitive as IB or TOS, but it's not hard to use.

Yesterday, I was stunned because I was consistently getting better fills on TW than IB.  For instance, on the BUD trade:

1.  I entered my order on IB;

2.  I then entered by order on TW at a LOWER price (by .02);

3.  The TW order filled, the IB did not.

This happened to me on BUD, JD, and HPQ.  I could not get a full position in HPQ on either platform.  I was ready to permanently write off IB.

Today has been a little different, as they have each performed almost identically.  When I was re-entering BUD, I immediately got a handful of contracts on IB filled, then entered by order on TW at a better price, but got no fills.  When I moved it to match the IB price, I also did not get any fills.  Over the next 20 minutes or so, I bumped the price up a .01 or .02 - they'd each give me partial fills at the same price.  So today, I'd say performance was about even on fills.

 

I'm going to track this for about a month.

 

And yes, it's a pain to trade two platforms.

[Maji]

@cwelsh I use Tastytrade and their fills have been worse than IB... at least from what I have observed. I have often complained about that on here and to TT staff. I think there are some cases where you may get better fills, but as Kim mentioned earlier, IB's smart routing is the way to go. FYI, I just have a small account and I don't trade large sizes... so YMMV.

[cwelsh]

45 minutes ago, Maji said:

@cwelsh I use Tastytrade and their fills have been worse than IB... at least from what I have observed. I have often complained about that on here and to TT staff. I think there are some cases where you may get better fills, but as Kim mentioned earlier, IB's smart routing is the way to go. FYI, I just have a small account and I don't trade large sizes... so YMMV.

Do you enter the trades simultaneously or price bid them against each other?  Here's day two's report:

 

1.  On BUD - no difference in the two.  I got back into the trade when it was near 107.  Entered IB at 5.31 with no fill.  Then entered on TW at 5.30, no fill.  Bumped TW to 5.31 and got 9/30 contracts filled.  Right after those 9 got filled (as in within one second), I got 253/300 contracts filled on IB.  After that neither got filled more.  I bumped the prices up to 5.33 on both platforms over the next hour but got no further fills.  BUD dropped closer to 106 so I cancelled the rest of the orders.  I find it VERY odd that 9/30 got filled on TW THEN 253/300 were filled on IB.  Clearly they were on different exchanges.  Evaluation - TIE;

2.  HPQ - exited my 21 straddle from yesterday.  STC order on IB at 1.33, no fill.  Submitted at 1.34 at TW, no fill.  Moved TW to 1.33, then 1.32, where I got a full fill.  I immediately moved the IB order to 1.32, but nothing.  Took lowering the price to 1.30 to get the order filled.  Evaluation - TW;

3.  LOW Straddle/Strangle - Entered Straddle on IB at 6.11, no fill.  Entered Straddle on TW at 6.10, no fill.  Bumped TW to 6.11, nothing.  Moved IB to 6.12 got 200/250 contracts filled.  Moved TW to 6.12 instantly got 50/50 filled.  Within a blink of an eye the rest of the IB order was also filled at 6.12.  Evaluation - TIE.  HOWEVER, on the strangle side, IB ended up .02 better.  Evaluation on strangle -- IB.

 

Today was not near as clear cut as yesterday, wherein TW was better 6/6 times. 

Today was a clear push.

 

But if we trade on average 10,000 contracts per month, that's a $500 per month difference by staying with TW - at 100,000 contracts it's $5,000.00 (and actually a little more than that with how IB's tier system is working out).  That's not a small amount.  IB will have to be BETTER, not "close" or a "draw" to stick with them.

[JoeA]

3 hours ago, cwelsh said:

Do you enter the trades simultaneously or price bid them against each other?  Here's day two's report:

 

1.  On BUD - no difference in the two.  I got back into the trade when it was near 107.  Entered IB at 5.31 with no fill.  Then entered on TW at 5.30, no fill.  Bumped TW to 5.31 and got 9/30 contracts filled.  Right after those 9 got filled (as in within one second), I got 253/300 contracts filled on IB.  After that neither got filled more.  I bumped the prices up to 5.33 on both platforms over the next hour but got no further fills.  BUD dropped closer to 106 so I cancelled the rest of the orders.  I find it VERY odd that 9/30 got filled on TW THEN 253/300 were filled on IB.  Clearly they were on different exchanges.  Evaluation - TIE;

2.  HPQ - exited my 21 straddle from yesterday.  STC order on IB at 1.33, no fill.  Submitted at 1.34 at TW, no fill.  Moved TW to 1.33, then 1.32, where I got a full fill.  I immediately moved the IB order to 1.32, but nothing.  Took lowering the price to 1.30 to get the order filled.  Evaluation - TW;

3.  LOW Straddle/Strangle - Entered Straddle on IB at 6.11, no fill.  Entered Straddle on TW at 6.10, no fill.  Bumped TW to 6.11, nothing.  Moved IB to 6.12 got 200/250 contracts filled.  Moved TW to 6.12 instantly got 50/50 filled.  Within a blink of an eye the rest of the IB order was also filled at 6.12.  Evaluation - TIE.  HOWEVER, on the strangle side, IB ended up .02 better.  Evaluation on strangle -- IB.

 

Today was not near as clear cut as yesterday, wherein TW was better 6/6 times. 

Today was a clear push.

 

But if we trade on average 10,000 contracts per month, that's a $500 per month difference by staying with TW - at 100,000 contracts it's $5,000.00 (and actually a little more than that with how IB's tier system is working out).  That's not a small amount.  IB will have to be BETTER, not "close" or a "draw" to stick with them.

cwelsh, One of things I am unsure about with Kim's approach is the low number of contracts traded.I know Kim is only doing 3-5 contracts, in order to stay within the 10% allocation of a $10K portfolio. I need more than that to make SO a meaningful portion of the portfolio I am responsible for. So I was surprised and interested in your volumes. Are you typically trading 300+ contracts in many of the SO straddle trades? Thank you.

[Kim]

Chris is our SteadyOptions fund manager. 

For retail accounts, we still don't recommend going higher than 100k.

[daniel500]

I have been trade with TW about 6months and have smaller account than my IB acct. For execution quality, sometimes TW has better execution than IB. It happened with my last 2 cycles for PCLN calendar. With identical limit price on both IB and TW, TW got filled but IB didn't. My main concern about TW, it hasn't OCO/OCA function yet that very helpful to me for placing calendar spread. I often enter many calendar order with different strikes for high price stock, such as PCLN, GOOG, etc. So, i can conclude that execution quality between IB and TW is not much different. 

Capped commission on TW also give some edge if we want to play with cheap calendar or more than 10 contracts on single leg. This cycle, i played with SWKS 1-week put calendar for around .20 Debit for each spread. Let's say with 10K portfolio, it need 25 spreads for half allocation ($500). With IB, it takes around $65-$70 comm for round-turn. With TW, it "only" takes around $25 round turn due to free comm to close.

So, my conclusion that TW still has much room for improvement on their platform and has bright future if the comm structure doesn't change. But, i will stick my large acct with IB due to company stability.

[skydragon]

I've done some trading on TW.  Overall it's been a good experience.  Though I haven't done any really scientific analysis.

A couple small problems though: I've posted somewhere in the forums before (perhaps a month ago?) that their bid/ask quotes (during normal trading hours) have been at times very inconsistent (out of range) when compared to other brokers (and compared to the fills I've been able to get).  To that previous post I would add that on one hectic market day I watched the B/A numbers settle after hours (til 4:15), and when they finally froze for the night they were pretty far off, which was annoying because it left my account balances (which were based on B/A quotes) way out of sync dollar-wise.  And then that carries over into the next day's opening balance, which makes it hard to determine gain/loss figures for throughout the day (at least while the trade is still open).

Another issue I've had is once I tried to BTO 300 SPY calls and got rejected for some size issue (I forget the exact message, but it wasn't very explicit) - I reduced the lot to 250 and that worked.

I do like their new price model.  Earlier I was going to mention to @cwelsh about the Tradier/SO arrangement to save on trading fees, but I'm sure he is well aware of that.

Edited February 17, 2018 by skydragon
minor rewording

[SBatch]

It’s good to see with real fills that Apex (TW, Tradier and Robinhood) is performing as well as if not better than IB.  This goes a long way in debunking the myth IB continuous to perpetuate about their smart routing/fills in an attempt to justify their high commissions and poor customer service.

Edited February 17, 2018 by SBatch

[Kim]

I agree that IB customer service is terrible, but they are still way cheaper than most brokers. And for international clients, this is often the only choice.

[apsoccermd]

There is sometging changed lately with tradier and apex fills.. I missed half of the trades last few months of so because of the fills... Last 30 days.. I was able to get all the so trades filled verry close to the official trade prices.. 

 

[SBatch]

25 minutes ago, apsoccermd said:

There is sometging changed lately with tradier and apex fills.. I missed half of the trades last few months of so because of the fills... Last 30 days.. I was able to get all the so trades filled verry close to the official trade prices.. 

 

I have noticed recent improved execution with Tradier as well.  It is likely because Apex eliminated Liquidpoint and Susquehanna as destinations and now send the vast majority of limit option orders to Citadel and Wolverine.  Yesterday was a good example.  I opened the CRM trade after Kim opened the Discussion but before he placed the trade (which was less than an hour apart).  Therefore, it was likely Kim and I were trying to get filled during the same time period.  I was filled at 6.08 on the straddle vs. the official trade of 6.13 (I opened a different short strangle so I can't compare there).

Edited February 17, 2018 by SBatch

[apsoccermd]

10 minutes ago, SBatch said:

I have noticed recent improved execution with Tradier as well.  It is likely because Apex eliminated Liquidpoint and Susquehanna as destinations and now send the vast majority of limit option orders to Citadel and Wolverine.  Yesterday was a good example.  I opened the CRM trade after Kim opened the Discussion but before he placed the trade (which was less than an hour apart).  Therefore, it was likely Kim and I were trying to get filled during the same time period.  I was filled at 6.08 on the straddle vs. the official trade of 6.13 (I opened a different short strangle so I can't compare there).

Good to know..its ctazy to think that citadel gives us a good fill... But i will take it

 

[Maji]

On 2/17/2018 at 10:11 AM, SBatch said:

I have noticed recent improved execution with Tradier as well.  It is likely because Apex eliminated Liquidpoint and Susquehanna as destinations and now send the vast majority of limit option orders to Citadel and Wolverine.  Yesterday was a good example.  I opened the CRM trade after Kim opened the Discussion but before he placed the trade (which was less than an hour apart).  Therefore, it was likely Kim and I were trying to get filled during the same time period.  I was filled at 6.08 on the straddle vs. the official trade of 6.13 (I opened a different short strangle so I can't compare there).

Maybe I should take the credit It is a tongue in cheek comment, so take it in that spirit.

I kept on complaining and emailing them screenshots and lists of trades that I did not get filled when others here got filled even when I placed the trade earlier than them... thanks to the various members here who shared the screenshots of their fills so that I can send it to Tasty.

[SBatch]

TastyWorks has dramatically improved their commissions and accepts many international clients:

https://tastyworks.desk.com/customer/en/portal/articles/2802397-international-accounts

They have much improved pricing for 2018 with capped option commissions (plus reg fees):

https://tastyworks.com/pricing.html#capComm

 

[Lazlo]

1 hour ago, SBatch said:

TastyWorks has dramatically improved their commissions and accepts many international clients:

https://tastyworks.desk.com/customer/en/portal/articles/2802397-international-accounts

They have much improved pricing for 2018 with capped option commissions (plus reg fees):

https://tastyworks.com/pricing.html#capComm

 

So far I'm really satisfied with them. Their platform tastyworks is lacking some features, like complex order and advanced charting. I asked them about paper trading; they told me sometimes this year it's coming.

[Andrew]

How is their mobile platform?  A good android app is really important to me.  I'm with TOS right now and the commissions are killing me.

[akito]

1 minute ago, Andrew said:

How is their mobile platform?  A good android app is really important to me.  I'm with TOS right now and the commissions are killing me.

Their mobile platform is very good for the most part. When the app first came out, there were bugs everywhere. As time went on, those bugs have been fixed, but quality control still remained (and probably still is) an issue. It's almost like they don't really test out their updates before releasing them. The app has been pretty stable for the past half year now, so maybe they've refined their process now, but I'm still a bit leery. Although I no longer use Tastyworks (using Tradier currently), I still use the TastyWorks app to look at prices and stuff. It's great that they have both curve and table view. 

[PGAmbrosio]

5 minutes ago, Andrew said:

How is their mobile platform?  A good android app is really important to me.  I'm with TOS right now and the commissions are killing me.

I prefer to never have to use a mobile app.  That may involve closing trades early or missing trades completely if I won't have access to my computer.  I am OK with that.  That being said, I have used the TastyWorks app and it's pretty good.  They try to make it mimic the desktop client as much as possible.

[akito]

22 minutes ago, PGAmbrosio said:

I prefer to never have to use a mobile app.  That may involve closing trades early or missing trades completely if I won't have access to my computer.  I am OK with that.  That being said, I have used the TastyWorks app and it's pretty good.  They try to make it mimic the desktop client as much as possible.

Funnily enough, I do all my trading on my phone =)

 

EDIT:

(I meant "trading" in the sense of managing positions and putting in orders. Supplemental stuff like looking at news, RV graphs, and steadyoptions happen on my work desktop)

Edited July 30, 2018 by akito

[PGAmbrosio]

@akito I can't imagine trading through the Tradier website on your phone.  I suppose that it has made you better in mentally visualizing the trades?  Come to think of it that is always a viable option as well, but I am not very comfortable doing so.  Practice makes perfect?

[akito]

4 minutes ago, PGAmbrosio said:

@akito I can't imagine trading through the Tradier website on your phone.  I suppose that it has made you better in mentally visualizing the trades?  Come to think of it that is always a viable option as well, but I am not very comfortable doing so.  Practice makes perfect?

Yes, it's definitely a little more difficult with Tradier when compared with TastyWorks on the phone, but I've made it work.

[SBatch]

Creating Alpha's Tradier/TradeHawk bundle is now available!

https://steadyoptions.com/forums/forum/topic/5165-creating-alphas-tradiertradehawk-bundle-package/

[kannaiah]

I'm opening tastyworks account and there is a referral section, I think someone might benefit from it. So please PM me with "Referral Name"

[VB5]

I have just signed up to familiarise with the interface. I hope the paper trading portion will be up soon.

[Gen88]

Does anyone know if tastyworks quotes are live streaming? I was told they are from the rep, but when I’m using the desktop and mobile platform there’s significant delays, no movement for a while compared to TOS which I also have. Which TOS are live streaming quotes.

[VB5]

On 2/17/2019 at 6:20 AM, Gen88 said:

Does anyone know if tastyworks quotes are live streaming? I was told they are from the rep, but when I’m using the desktop and mobile platform there’s significant delays, no movement for a while compared to TOS which I also have. Which TOS are live streaming quotes.

Yes I have noticed this too. The Mid price of Tastyworks seems to be nearer the Nat price then TOS too at times. I use TOS paper trading though but from my understanding , orders at TOS papertrading are filled with realtime prices.

[TrustyJules]

2 minutes ago, tribalblu said:

orders at TOS papertrading are filled with realtime prices.

How could they do that outside of very liquid option series?

[cwelsh]

On 2/16/2019 at 4:20 PM, Gen88 said:

Does anyone know if tastyworks quotes are live streaming? I was told they are from the rep, but when I’m using the desktop and mobile platform there’s significant delays, no movement for a while compared to TOS which I also have. Which TOS are live streaming quotes.

They say they're live, but it's not uncommon for me to notice live quote differences between Tastyworks, TOS, and IB.  I regularly see that.  Part of it can be due to how they display prices (for instance, last time I checked, TOS used the best price for low/high ACROSS option exchanges -- so you might not even get filled at ask on a straddle.

[VB5]

2 hours ago, TrustyJules said:

How could they do that outside of very liquid option series?

I don't get your question..

[VB5]

2 hours ago, cwelsh said:

They say they're live, but it's not uncommon for me to notice live quote differences between Tastyworks, TOS, and IB.  I regularly see that.  Part of it can be due to how they display prices (for instance, last time I checked, TOS used the best price for low/high ACROSS option exchanges -- so you might not even get filled at ask on a straddle.

The broker isn't able to grab the best price for separate legs of a straddle from different exchanges?

[TrustyJules]

11 hours ago, tribalblu said:

I don't get your question..

When there is no volume you could never execute a paper trade at real time prices. Therefore whatever papertrade fill they are giving you is their best guess of what would happen if a trade were inserted in the pipeline. The exception is extremely liquid options of say AAPL or TLT where generally there is continual trading on like for stocks. A lot of our trades however the midprice can be very misleading and in the absence of an actual trade at the moment of your paper trade you cannot be sure that the paper fill is realistic.

[VB5]

I get what you meant now. I was comparing the same underlying option contracts. At TOS paper trades, when I get a notification that an order is filled I will immediately switch to the Tastyworks apps to see if the actual price of the options at Mid-price of the same underlying is similar or better. Most of the time, the price is lagging behind by a minute or more. It might not be the best way to conduct an actual comparison as I lack a Live TOS account. If anyone has both LIVE accounts, it would be great if you could share here.