Tastyworks A New Brokerage Firm

[Guest Chris]

Tom Sossnoff a business man in the trading space has now created his own brokerage firm. Ugh! He seems to make money in creating businesses with in the trading space as he has been on the wrong side of the market as a trader for the past 6 years. It seems he wants all commissions instead of a portion hence his relationship with TD Ameritrade. Thoughts?

[Kim]

Well, I guess we know now the true purpose of tastytrade.

[thesnaggle]

Broker Check for TastyWorks: https://brokercheck.finra.org/firm/summary/277027 

 

The officers aren't particularly distinguished in terms of pedigrees, but they are "doers" -- Sheridan notably, who is a proven quantity in directing platform development (including mobile apps). If they can get the commissions down to a manageable drag, I might give their platform a whirl. The site claims functioning browser-based and mobile apps will be available right out of the gate, based on Dough's GUI. (Sometime in January 2017.)

 

(Although I'm not a fan of Dough, having robust browser-based and mobile platforms is a huge advantage for me, since I work in secure areas that will not allow me to download standalone ONE software or run it from a flash storage device. I'm testing the ONE now, linked to IB, in anticipation of a quick divorce from TDAmeritrade after taxes.)

 

Sosnoff is super creative. He also knows that execution and costs matter. It would be a big middle finger to the guys over at TDAmeritrade if he and his team pull this off, and with lower commissions. When TDA bought thinkorswim, I heard they wouldn't let Sosnoff near an executive position with any real authority. Probably just made him more determined.

TDA and IB are due for some disruption. I'm already tracking the Tradier/Livevol Core thread. Very interested in that as well.

 

 

 

 

[cuegis]

I have never used Dough.It just didn't appeal to me I did use it though to look at the IV percentile list to see what options were relatively expensive.

I kept a TOS account open just so I use the software for analysis. But I Never made any trades because of the commissions.

ALL of my trades have always been with IB.
 

As far as the new TastyWorks platform is concerned, it seems like they have been working on it for over 2 years and it is exclusively for options.

They said it will be able to do things that TOS could never do.
 

They have proven that they can build good software and, just like all of us, over the past few years they have learned a lot more about what an options trader would want to have available in his "toolkit" for analysis, and the new software is supposed to have a ton of new tools that might be extremely helpful for  scanning for trading candidates based on your OWN criteria.
 

They HAVE to make more money because somebody had to pay for this huge project.

Instead of instantly tossing this off as a play for more commissions, and trying to imagine what is wrong with this, I would give this thing a chance to be examined to see how good a tool it is.

If they actually do provide IB rates, and the software is a huge step forward in the ability to analyze, and search w,ith your own filters, what is the problem?

Let the software prove whether it is a big step forward rather than imagine the worst before it has even come out.

 

Also, you can always get the software , but make all of your trades with IB if the commissions are too high and the software is great!

 

[Kim]

When considering a broker, execution and commissions are probably the most important things, but you also need to consider the broker financial stability and size. IB is very stable, with years of proven reputation and financial stability. What do we know about financial stability of Tastyworks? At this point - nothing.

[cuegis]

3 minutes ago, Kim said:

When considering a broker, execution and commissions are probably the most important things, but you also need to consider the broker financial stability and size. IB is very stable, with years of proven reputation and financial stability. What do we know about financial stability of Tastyworks? At this point - nothing.

 

I'm going to go with using their software for analysis IF it is a major step forward, and keep my money,and do my trades at IB!

[Ordos]

Pass.

Edited December 12, 2016 by Ordos

[Kim]

I believe that Tom Sosnoff making trade recommendations at tastytrade and having a stake at Ameritrade was already a huge conflict of interest. Now when he owns tastyworks and continues doing his shows at tastytrade, it's even worse. I think it's only matter of time when he becomes part of next SEC investigation.

[RapperT]

going to pass on this but there is a need for good, low cost web based/mobile trading platform.

 

IB mobile is awful

[Mat M]

I'm familiar with TOS and IB and use both platforms but am not familiar with ONE. Would someone who knows about it please post a link or more information about how I can learn about it?

[JohnHL]

I am also interested in getting ONE, probably with a 1-year subscription bundle. Would any member familiar with this software kindly give newbies like me a heads-up on its functionality, particularly on backtesting capabilities and if it has automated order entry capability (e.g. pick options according to particular parameters such as delta), as well how ONE stacks up with well known software like OptionVue.

[4REAL]

28 minutes ago, Mat M said:

I'm familiar with TOS and IB and use both platforms but am not familiar with ONE. Would someone who knows about it please post a link or more information about how I can learn about it?

@Mat M @JohnHL

Link to ONE webinar

https://steadyoptions.com/forums/forum/topic/2678-optionnet-explorer-software-webinar/

 

Edited December 13, 2016 by 4REAL

[Mat M]

10 hours ago, 4REAL said:

@Mat M @JohnHL

Link to ONE webinar

https://steadyoptions.com/forums/forum/topic/2678-optionnet-explorer-software-webinar/

Thank you @4REAL. I appreciate your providing the link in response to my question.

[lrfsdad]

I emailed them just for kicks about calendars in an ira.  Currently I have An Ira at TDA and 1 at IB.  At IB  I can do calendars in it but not at TD.  Evidently tasty Works will allow them.  Something to consider if the platform proves to be stable easy to use and has the functionality of tos that so many people like.

[RapperT]

they will get a lot of business with that pricing

[Guest Izzo70]

Tastyworks fees will be a $1 per contract to open and free to close?

https://www.tastyworks.com/commissions-and-fees.html

[Kim]

My Take:

 

The commissions are $1 per contract. In addition, there is Options Regulatory of 0.04, which brings the total to $1.08. SPX, RUT, VIX, SPXPM and few more indexes cost more (between 0.18 and 0.65 extra). Exercise and Assignment is $5. Margin rates are around 7-8%. Stocks $5 flat.

 

Compare to IB:

Options commissions 0.70 plus Options Regulatory of 0.04, so total is around 1.48 (round trip). Commissions go down to 0.50/contract if you trade 10,000+ contracts. Only SPX and VIX are extra. No Exercise and Assignment fees. Stocks: $1 per 200 shares. Margin rates less than 2%.

 

In my opinion, Tastyworks commissions might be attractive to TOS traders, but definitely not IB traders. And don't forget to check financial stability of Tastyworks which at this point is unknown.

 

On a personal note, I wouldn't touch anything that has Tom Sosnoff name attached to it.

[RapperT]

4 minutes ago, Kim said:

My Take:

 

The commissions are $1 per contract. In addition, there is Options Regulatory of 0.04, which brings the total to $1.08. SPX, RUT, VIX, SPXPM and few more indexes cost more (between 0.18 and 0.65 extra). Exercise and Assignment is $5. Margin rates are around 7-8%. Stocks $5 flat.

 

 

 

kim, there are no commissions for closing trades.  So overall, most options trades will be cheaper than IB

That being said im still not touching it.

 

Edited January 8, 2017 by RapperT

[Kim]

Yes, I took that into account: 1.08 in Tsatytrade vs. 1.48 in IB for round trip. BUT:

 

1. Trading indexes like SPX, RUT, VIX etc. is more expensive at Tastyworks.

2. 4 times higher margin rates.

3. Exercise and Assignment fees.

4. Much higher rates for stocks.

5. No volume discounts. 

 

When you account all factors, the total cost at Tastyworks will be probably similar or slightly lower than IB.

 

My point is that when you are a new player in town and want to compete against someone like IB who has been #1 broker 4 years in a row by Barron's, you need to do much better. Look at other new players like Tradier, Lightspeed etc. Especially when your mantra is "We want to help the small guy"...

 

Of course compared to TOS, those are amazing rates. For all Sosnoff/tastytrade funboys, it is probably attractive as well. But to steal clients from IB, they will have to do much better.

[RapperT]

yeah agree.  I think  they are counting on 2 things primarily

1:  attracting n00bs and pounding them with the "trade frequently and trade small" mantra

2:  Their platform versus IB's

[cuegis]

They have been working with the help of the SEC for the past 3 years to put this operation together following the letter of the law.

They are 2 separate companies

1- TastyTrade, which is led by Sosnoff and only in the business of providing research and education, for free. They offer no products that cost money.

2- TastyWorks is the new "clearing and brokerage" arm of the company and is a separate company.

They are not a clearing firm. They are using "Apex Clearing" for that part of the program.

Apex has been around for many decades and has an excellent reputation.

Tom & co. started creating TOS in 1999 and it has grown to be one of the best retail trading platforms today.

I personally do not use it because I have been with IB since they started and , I do not know which platform is better but, I am so attached to it after all of these years, it is my personal choice. Plus IB has more money than almost any retail firm in the world and their commissions are near the best.

TastyWorks will probably be a little bit less money in commissions and their trading platform is the fastest in the (retail) world because they removed all of the"junk" that slows other platforms down.

It is strictly an "options" platform that deals with everything relating to options and HFT speed because of the way it was designed.

I think they have proved that they know how to design a platform. Just look at TOS. From 1999-2010 no other platform could touch it.

But now they used the same team to make something far superior.

They offer anything related to TastyTrade for free and would love to do the same thing with TastyWorks but, these things, at this level, cost a LOT of money to run.

With that considered, their rates are pretty amazing, and Apex Clearing is a solid clearing firm with a very long history.

If there was anything to worry about regarding the safety of your funds, then I think Apex would have gone out business over 25 years ago.

The whole thing got a big green light to begin from the SEC so I think it is about as safe as you can get.

They have only 1 problem for me, but it is only temporary.

They will only offer Equity, Etf, Indexes, and all related options and products at the very start.

In March they will add all commodities, and more and more products as time goes on.

You are not putting your money with a new firm that is just starting out and have to worry about how they will do.

The company has been clearing forever and is solidly built to handle anything.

I',m interested in the platform. I will never leave IB. At least I doubt it.

But, I will open a small account here to see what the platform is all about, and if it provides any tools that are new and can make my trading more efficient.

 

And NO...I am not a spokesman for them! I just wanted to provide some information about their operation that seems to be lacking in the conversation.

[cuegis]

One more thing . There seems to be a misunderstanding in many conversations here about what they are saying. People seem to be mocking them about this idea of "Trade samll/Trade often".

 I was watching them yesterday and they were really making a big fuss about "do not feel as if you need to always be trading and putting on positions"......they said "there are times when very good conditions are present for certain types of trades and that is when you should take advantage of them"

But they did a whole segment about "do not trade just for the sake of trading. It is always better to stay out of the market if your best conditions for a trade are not present"

I constantly hear them pounding the idea of "don't trade unless the conditions are right, for you"

Is that an idea worth mocking?

[RapperT]

im not mocking them for it, but it if one is getting paid through the generation of commissions the conflict is obvious. You cant disregard that.

 

There is nothing wrong with trading small and frequently if one's system is sound

[cuegis]

2 minutes ago, RapperT said:

im not mocking them for it, but it if one is getting paid through the generation of commissions the conflict is obvious. You cant disregard that.

 

There is nothing wrong with trading small and frequently if one's system is sound

 

So the only "absolute" solution is to not charge any commissions.

Since that can't happen while running a viable operation, I think these rates are among the best in the retail industry.

And, if one's system wasn't sound in logic and in results, and the person continued to trade often then they will have to learn the hard way to stop and get their act together before it's too late!

 

[RapperT]

13 minutes ago, cuegis said:

So the only "absolute" solution is to not charge any commissions.

 

 

huh?  no.  The solution is to be up front about the nature of the relationship when propagating advice and info through their "free" tasty trade network.

No reasonable person would have any issue with business men making money

[Kim]

Tastytrade might be free (although they do have some paid products like bob the trader). A mouse will always find free cheese in a mousetrap; but I never saw one that was very happy about it. I'm still waiting for a proof that Tom Sosnoff or any of his traders or followers are actually profitable. Thousands of traders have been burned by his strategy of selling premium before earnings on stocks like AMZN and NFLX.

 

Tom Sosnoff is a brilliant businessman. He created Tastytrade in order to "help the small guy", while his real goal is to generate commissions for TDAmeritrade. Don't take my word for it, there are many people who think the same - here is one of them Tastytrade: A Shill with Skills  Again, his mantra has always been there "Trade Small, Trade Often". This is a huge conflict of interests for TastyTrade and now for TastyWorks. As many people have mentioned, when you present Tastytrade as a free network while being paid through teh back door, the conflict of interest and hypocrisy are obvious.

 

Tom Sosnoff is also very charismatic, he created a huge followup and now he will get many of his followers to follow him to TastyWorks. Brilliant move for him, not sure about his followers.

 

No matter who is their clearing firm, TastyWorks is still a new company. New platform, new management, unproven execution etc. 

 

I advised people to be very careful about Tastytrade, and my advice remains the same about TastyWorks. Those who believe that Tom Sosnoff provides good research, I suggest reading my articles Buying Premium Prior To Earnings - Does It Work? and Can We Profit From Volatility Expansion Into Earnings?

[cuegis]

1 hour ago, RapperT said:

huh?  no.  The solution is to be up front about the nature of the relationship when propagating advice and info through their "free" tasty trade network.

No reasonable person would have any issue with business men making money

 

I guess you havn't watched them over the past few weeks.

They took several weeks to explain the entire structure of the business, how it works, who owns what etc. etc.

I don't it would be possible to be more transparent.

They worked together with the SEC in putting all of this together the past 3 years.

Everything was perfectly in order for them. That's a pretty good approval.

I don't think there is anything else they can do to be more upfront.

You don't have to agree with everything they say. I certainly don't.

I have had lot's of disagreements with Tom (ex. how could you realistically say that you would NEVER buy premium?)

But, they are amazingly honest and fair, in a business that is mostly filled with scams (i.e. "I'll show you how to make $6784 per week, every week")

They work very hard, and provide mostly quality information. Most important, they are honest.

 

[cuegis]

18 minutes ago, Kim said:

Tastytrade might be free (although they do have some paid products like bob the trader). A mouse will always find free cheese in a mousetrap; but I never saw one that was very happy about it. I'm still waiting for a proof that Tom Sosnoff or any of his traders or followers are actually profitable. Thousands of traders have been burned by his strategy of selling premium before earnings on stocks like AMZN and NFLX.

 

Tom Sosnoff is a brilliant businessman. He created Tastytrade in order to "help the small guy", while his real goal is to generate commissions for TDAmeritrade. Don't take my word for it, there are many people who think the same - here is one of them Tastytrade: A Shill with Skills  Again, his mantra has always been there "Trade Small, Trade Often". This is a huge conflict of interests for TastyTrade and now for TastyWorks. As many people have mentioned, when you present Tastytrade as a free network while being paid through teh back door, the conflict of interest and hypocrisy are obvious.

 

Tom Sosnoff is also very charismatic, he created a huge followup and now he will get many of his followers to follow him to TastyWorks. Brilliant move for him, not sure about his followers.

 

No matter who is their clearing firm, TastyWorks is still a new company. New platform, new management, unproven execution etc. 

 

I advised people to be very careful about Tastytrade, and my advice remains the same about TastyWorks. Those who believe that Tom Sosnoff provides good research, I suggest reading my articles Buying Premium Prior To Earnings - Does It Work? and Can We Profit From Volatility Expansion Into Earnings?

 

He once did a study about "Buying premium before earnings" and it was one of the most stupid presentations I have ever seen.

He did the study in reverse. He decided that he wanted to make a point (you can't make money buying premium before earnings) , THEN, he went out and had his research team "cherry pick" a series of events, which he already knew the outcome of. Then, lastly, they ran a study to prove their point.

I agree with you on that one totally. Anyone can prove anything by cherry picking data and shape it to provide the results you want in advance.

He has presented ten's of thousands of amazingly insightful studies, that ARE true, as well.

I'm not going to call the guy a fraud because there is some very small % of his studies that I don't agree with.

Relative to the amount of information those people are putting together, there is a VERY small % that I would place in the category of that particular study.

I have never done my own study, if it were even possible, as to what % of his presentations are spot on compared to the ones that are misleading.

But, the majority make sense, and have value despite the unenlightened ones.

This is an industry where making money is a priority. I think stubbornly committing to the idea that one should NEVER buy premium is absolutely idiotic.

But, how does he make money from trying to perpetuate that idea?

[Kim]

39 minutes ago, cuegis said:

He once did a study about "Buying premium before earnings" and it was one of the most stupid presentations I have ever seen.

He did the study in reverse. He decided that he wanted to make a point (you can't make money buying premium before earnings) , THEN, he went out and had his research team "cherry pick" a series of events, which he already knew the outcome of. Then, lastly, they ran a study to prove their point.

I agree with you on that one totally. Anyone can prove anything by cherry picking data and shape it to provide the results you want in advance.

He has presented ten's of thousands of amazingly insightful studies, that ARE true, as well.

I'm not going to call the guy a fraud because there is some very small % of his studies that I don't agree with.

Relative to the amount of information those people are putting together, there is a VERY small % that I would place in the category of that particular study.

I have never done my own study, if it were even possible, as to what % of his presentations are spot on compared to the ones that are misleading.

But, the majority make sense, and have value despite the unenlightened ones.

This is an industry where making money is a priority. I think stubbornly committing to the idea that one should NEVER buy premium is absolutely idiotic.

But, how does he make money from trying to perpetuate that idea?

Yes, this is the study I was referring to. He actually did similar studies more than once. Here is another one - Another garbage study from Tasty Trade.

 

I have no idea what percentage of his studies is good. I would assume that more than 50% for a simple reason: selling premium in general has an edge compared to buying premium, and since all his studies are about selling premium, he must be right more often than not. But as you said, the fact that he claims one should NEVER buy premium is absolutely idiotic, and he has zero credibility by claiming such idiotic claim.

 

I never said he is a fraud. I said he is a hypocrite and has conflict of interest. Doesn't make him a fraud.

 

"how does he make money from trying to perpetuate that idea?"

 

There are two different aspects here.

 

First aspect is his conflict of interest because he recommends active trading strategies that are commissions consuming and at the same time, benefits financially from those strategies, no matter if they make money or not. This is on the business level. btw, he is not alone - Najarian brothers do the same with TradeMonster/OptionMonster, and TDAmeritrade are doing the same with redoption. But at least they don't claim that their goal is to "help the small guy".

 

Second aspect is his claim that only options selling can make money. This is on the professional level. To me, this claim alone discredits the whole Tastytrade network because you can never know if their studies are correct or are skewed to support his concept. He did it with buying premium before earnings, I'm sure you can find many other instances. It doesn't matter what percentage of the studies is correct because novice traders will never know the difference. If he lied and skewed his study (intentionally) once, how can he ever be trusted again?? 

[RapperT]

1 hour ago, cuegis said:

I guess you havn't watched them over the past few weeks.

 

 

correct, I havent.  But im not referring to tasty works.

[RapperT]

he has two videos on his youtube channel about calendars.  One goes over why no one should ever trade calendars,  Then a couple years later they published one centered around how effective calendars are in low vol environments  I feel this kind of provocation is effective as entertainment but doesnt carry much weight otherwise.  His studies all employ very small sample sizes rendering their results iffy at best. He also outright disparages systematic trading, especially trend following despite the vast amounts of empirical evidence supporting the efficacy of both.

 

That being said, I think some of his options basics videos are very helpful.

 

Despite all of this, my issue is the opacity around his  TDA relationship and how close minded he is toward any approach other than his own.  In my experience,  anyone who thinks their way is the only way is either full of shit, peddling something, or both.

Edited January 9, 2017 by RapperT

[cuegis]

29 minutes ago, RapperT said:

he has two videos on his youtube channel about calendars.  One goes over why no one should ever trade calendars,  Then a couple years later they published one centered around how effective calendars are in low vol environments  I feel this kind of provocation is effective as entertainment but does dolf much weight otherwise.  He also outright disparages systematic trading, especially trend following despite the vast amounts of empirical evidence supporting the efficacy of both.

 

That being said, I think some of his options basics videos are very helpful.

 

My issue is the opacity around his  TDA relationship and how close minded he is toward any approach other than his own.  In my experience,  anyone who thinks their way is the only way is either full of shit, peddling something, or both.

 

I agree with you and I have had many conversations with Tom, debating many of these ideas.

But, as opposed to all of the charlatans moving around in this space...where does Tom gain "Financially" from pushing a stupid theory.(i,e, NEVER buy premium)

Especially when he is generally on the right track ( IV is overstated, ....you always have more of an edge as a seller of premium.etc.).

It looks to me like it has it's roots based in "ego" rather than financial gain.

[Kim]

Turns out tastyworks $1 commission is not exactly $1. There is an extra 0.15 clearing fee and regulatory fee. So total to open and close position is $1.30. With IB it's around $1.50 on average, and many times you pay less for adding liquidity. Which means that overall cost with tastyworks will be similar or even higher than IB. And this is before even mentioning higher margin rates, higher commissions for stocks etc.

 

So much for "no hidden fees"..

[Guest Achemist]

 

Dan Sheridan is connected to ONE

Sosnoff is connected to Tastytrade

One is good and one is bad but:

Sosnoff Sheridan Group is started in early 80's

 

I cant understood your hate to Sosnoff. He is far from perfect but he is not so bad as you try to show.

[Kim]

I don't hate Sosnoff. I'm providing the facts only. And I don't see how Dan Sheridan connection to ONE is relevant. Dan Sheridan made an agreement with ONE to get better rates to his members. He does not benefit personally from this connection. Sosnoff does.

[Guest data]

On 12/7/2016 at 9:30 PM, Kim said:

Well, I guess we know now the true purpose of tastytrade.

NOT, It's Just the next step.

[Kim]

I have been IB client for over 10 years. Never had any issues with their CS. Barron's ranks them #1 6 years in a row (ahead of TDAmeritrade in ALL surveys).

 

As for tastytrade "brilliant studies" - maybe they look brilliant to novice traders who cannot really fully understand and verify them.

 

Take a look:

Another garbage study from Tasty Trade.
Buying Premium Prior To Earnings - Does It Work?
Can We Profit From Volatility Expansion Into Earnings?

 

Please spend few minutes reading the links and tell me if you still believe their studies are "brilliant". In case of tastytarde, you indeed get what you pay for.

 

Many people fail to understand a simple thing: when someone claims that only his trading method works, RUN AWAY. He will do everything to "match" the studies conclusions with his theory. 

 

What was the true purpose of tastytrade? To gain thousands of followers for their "brilliant" free studies, and then use those followers to convert them to tastyworks.

 

But I'm actually very grateful to tastytrade. They say that our earnings straddles don't work. We don't do studies, we prove that they work with real trading, and tastytrade followers provide us a fresh supply of sellers when we buy them.

 

P.S. I have no idea if Sheridan pays commissions to his broker. I was referring to his agreement with ONE software. and yes, we are all businessmen in the end. Nothing wrong to be a businessman and admit that you want to make money. What is wrong is repeating time after time that your goal is to help the small guy FOR FREE, while hiding huge conflicts of interest. To me this is hypocrisy.

[Guest Alchemist]

Kim, you said that you cant test just 2-3 symbols and make general conclusions that something is working or not. You are correct here! But you show us just 2-3 studies that are not good and you make same general conclusion. You never make incorrect conclusion? You never make mistakes? All your studies, trades and so on are more than perfect ?

Sosnoff has huge ego and that is his biggest problem in my opinion but still he done great job creating TOS and TT. As i said, he is far from perfect but he is not so bad as you try to show. 

You said you will never touch anything that Sosnoff create but I can same for your so loving IB. I was with IB more than 5 yrs and i am very unhappy with them. Forget commissions, what about their almost double margin requirements? What about changing margin requirements without any message? Their automatic liquidating system is so bad that i have not words to explain   it. and the cherry is their CS, probably worst in business.

So, everyone is both  good and bad , me you,,, Sosnoff, IB ..... you cant as you said make general conclusion on just 2-3 bad studies. "Trade small, trade often" is incorrect too? Ok then, allocate 100% of your capital in one strategy, in your favorite strategy

OK, you get my point, you are smart enough to know that Sosnoff has great studies and very bad ones and in general he is very useful   but your personal hate to him is blinding you.

 

btw, the only real track record is audited one....i can produce a tons of not audited track records that cover my needs 

I wish you all the best !

plz excuse my English

[Kim]

It's not 2-3 studies. It's much more. But this is not the point. I'm sure he has a lot of great studies. But once you see few studies that were intentionally skewed to reach the conclusions he wanted, how can you trust him? How can a novice trader know which study is good and which is bad? it is matter of credibility. Yes, everyone makes mistakes. Including myself. But I always admit my mistakes. Unlike Sosnoff,  I never say that my strategies are the only way to make money in the stock market. Have you ever seen Sosnoff admit his mistake?

 

As for IB - this is not the place to discuss it, you can place a comment in our  Brokers and commissions discussion. All I can say is that most our members are very happy with IB, and they must be doing something right to be ranked top broker by Barron's 6 years in a row.  

 

"Trade small, trade often" serves well the brokers in terms of commissions, and since tastytrade and dough are linked to Ameritrade (and now to tastyworks), it creates huge conflict of interests. I'm sure you can see that.

 

You are partially right about audited track record. Non-audited track record is still better than no track record at all (and Sosnoff has no track record at all). You can produce whatever you want, but usually it is pretty obvious when the track record is fake. And if someone has difficulty to recognize fake track record, he can read my article Performance Reporting: The Myths And The Reality.

[Guest Tastyworks account]

I just opened up a small account in Tastyworks, out of curiosity. I'll just go with the facts here, I really know nothing about Sosnoff or the tastyworks team. I am just a trader, an options trader that is always looking for the best execution at the lowest possible fees, really don't care were (as long as my money is safe of course). After trading about 30 contracts so far in different, very liquid, ETFs (spy, iwm....) these is what I see in case it can help anyone:

The pros:

They have the fastest execution I've seen so far. I have other accounts, IB, TOS, Optionshouse. When I place an order with them, the order normally stays there for a while, I try to always go for the mid price between bid and ask. With Tastyworks, the order just goes through, honestly haven't seen anything like that in 5 years of trading, don't know how they do it. And the order goes through at the right price, equal, or better, than TOS or IB.
They have the best commission structure, if you place many different trades with 1 or 2 contracts each. $1.15 to open, $0.15 to close, so $1.30 round trip. Seriously? Hey let's face it, even IB can't beat that. I've been with them for 5 years now.

The cons:

Can't trade futures (not yet).
The platform is new, you may encounter a bug here or there.
High margin rates.
There is an option assignment/exercise fee. Still less than the horrible $15 TDA charges, but can't compare to $0 in IB.

I haven't trades stocks with them so far.

I am just putting these facts out there, just hope this helps.

[Kim]

Thanks for sharing, appreciate it!

 

It would be interesting to see how the execution is for less liquid instruments.  

[cuegis]

1 hour ago, Guest Tastyworks account said:

I just opened up a small account in Tastyworks, out of curiosity. I'll just go with the facts here, I really know nothing about Sosnoff or the tastyworks team. I am just a trader, an options trader that is always looking for the best execution at the lowest possible fees, really don't care were (as long as my money is safe of course). After trading about 30 contracts so far in different, very liquid, ETFs (spy, iwm....) these is what I see in case it can help anyone:

The pros:

They have the fastest execution I've seen so far. I have other accounts, IB, TOS, Optionshouse. When I place an order with them, the order normally stays there for a while, I try to always go for the mid price between bid and ask. With Tastyworks, the order just goes through, honestly haven't seen anything like that in 5 years of trading, don't know how they do it. And the order goes through at the right price, equal, or better, than TOS or IB.
They have the best commission structure, if you place many different trades with 1 or 2 contracts each. $1.15 to open, $0.15 to close, so $1.30 round trip. Seriously? Hey let's face it, even IB can't beat that. I've been with them for 5 years now.

The cons:

Can't trade futures (not yet).
The platform is new, you may encounter a bug here or there.
High margin rates.
There is an option assignment/exercise fee. Still less than the horrible $15 TDA charges, but can't compare to $0 in IB.

I haven't trades stocks with them so far.

I am just putting these facts out there, just hope this helps.

As far as futures go...they targeted March 1 as the start date for futures/options. So, figure another 1-2 weeks to be realistic. But soon.

I listened to them a few weeks ago , at length, explain how they went about creating their new trading platform vs. the old TOS platform.

Without going into a LONG explanation....basically, what they were trying to do was work under the assumption that the people using it were fairly knowlegable with regard to options at this point and , know what they want to do.

The last thing they need is some heavy duty technical analysis portion among many other similar things to slow down the whole trading process.

Their only goal was SPEED and low rates.

So, they removed all of the "crap" that slows the entire platform down so that, in return, you get SPEED!

You want charts, there are a zillion other places to look at that. They just wanted to keep it simple fast and clean.

[Noah Katz]

7 hours ago, Guest Tastyworks account said:

They have the best commission structure, if you place many different trades with 1 or 2 contracts each. $1.15 to open, $0.15 to close, so $1.30 round trip. Seriously? Hey let's face it, even IB can't beat that.

 

Tradier can.

 

Even leaving aside the $40/mo flat rate deal for members here, their everyday rate is no ticket fee and .35/contract.

 

Not sure if the additional fees of .04 (ORF) buy/.05 (ORF + TAF) sell apply here or only with the $40 deal, but even if they do it's just .79/contract round trip.

Edited February 2, 2017 by Noah Katz

[Guest Tastyworks account]

15 hours ago, Kim said:

Thanks for sharing, appreciate it!

 

It would be interesting to see how the execution is for less liquid instruments.  

Even though I really don't like to trade other than "really highly liquidity", I went ahead today and took the challenge today. Tried a small short 1 point wide XLB vertical this morning, it was about $0.1 the spread at that time, I really can't trade larger spread than that. The order just went through really quick just like the rest.

I put it in both at the same time TDA and TW, hit send in TDA then in TW. They both filled, but TW filled the order inmediately, TOS filled about 2-3 seconds later.

Again I have nothing against any particular broker and don't favor any other either. I am just stating the facts here. Not sure how they do it, but it is impressive what I've seen so far.

If they can keep it like this for the next few months, really good performance with really bottom prices, I see options traders gravitating towards them. IB may not even bother, they are probably too huge. But I can see TDA losing some business if they don't try to match this as far as cost.

[Kim]

I think tastyworks are targeting mostly TDA. I don't see many IB clients move as the commissions are almost the same (1.30 round trip at tastyworks vs. 1.50 at IB, but when you consider other costs like margin rates, assignment fees etc. it will probably be very similar). But with TDA, the price difference is huge.

[cuegis]

I think it is apples and oranges.

IB's customer base is professional, even though you can have a small retail account there.

IB clears $20 Billion hedge funds. Not to mention their own proprietary operations which span the globe.

TastyWorks is ONLY for the small, retail trader and they have provided "that" group with all of the best tools for their specific needs. The lowest (or close to it) commissions, and the fastest execution platform.

I don't think IB has anything to worry about. They are targeting totally different markets.

[Noah Katz]

1 hour ago, cuegis said:

The lowest (or close to it) commissions...

 

As far as I can tell no one is even close to Tradier, but when broker cost comes up they're never mentioned, except apparently by me. 

 

Is there some secret about them that I'm not privy to?

 

I've made similar posts in various threads, hoping for some feedback since I'm considering moving to Tradier, but all I get is silence...

[craigsmith]

First off, thank for posting your experience with Tradier. The pricing certainly can't be beat and I'm sure everyone here has taken a look at them. This is just my point of view, maybe others here will post their thoughts as well.

 

1. Their website doesn't really provide much information. So it appears all they have is a plug-in they provide to 3rd parties. 

 

2. There are 30+ platforms supported. I really don't have the time to go through every single platform to find the one to trade from. Also, all of the platforms appear to charge a fee, so you have to add that fee into your trading costs to then try to figure out if you're really saving money.

 

3. I can only find a few reviews to see other people's experiences with Tradier. They have 2 reviews on Investimonials and a thread on Elite Trader from 3 years ago. Not much else.

 

4. I'm sure they are selling order flow. Can't find any info on that though.

 

Anyone else here using Tradier? Or anyone willing to give their thoughts? I am interested, but not sure I want to pull the trigger on this without more information.

[4REAL]

Cost of transaction is not everything

 

Some of the things I consider before opening acc:

 

1. Solvency of the broker, I guess if you change from TOS or IB, you won't improve yourself.

 

2. Liquidity/ Fills, say you do 1000 contracts (or 500 spreads) per month and have to pay an average of 0.01 more (compared to IB or TOS) to get filled, your monthly cost would be 40$/month flat fee + 500$ 

 

3. Platform

 

 

1. and 2. are holding me back to open an account for now.

Edited February 2, 2017 by 4REAL

[cuegis]

51 minutes ago, craigsmith said:

First off, thank for posting your experience with Tradier. The pricing certainly can't be beat and I'm sure everyone here has taken a look at them. This is just my point of view, maybe others here will post their thoughts as well.

 

1. Their website doesn't really provide much information. So it appears all they have is a plug-in they provide to 3rd parties. 

 

2. There are 30+ platforms supported. I really don't have the time to go through every single platform to find the one to trade from. Also, all of the platforms appear to charge a fee, so you have to add that fee into your trading costs to then try to figure out if you're really saving money.

 

3. I can only find a few reviews to see other people's experiences with Tradier. They have 2 reviews on Investimonials and a thread on Elite Trader from 3 years ago. Not much else.

 

4. I'm sure they are selling order flow. Can't find any info on that though.

 

Anyone else here using Tradier? Or anyone willing to give their thoughts? I am interested, but not sure I want to pull the trigger on this without more information.

Same here. Right now I'm really in a very good groove with everything involved in my process.

In addition, I have been with IB since they opened...over 20 years ago so their platform is like another appendage to my body and that is one less thing I have to think about during the day.

Basically, I'm in the space where I "don't want to mess around with a good thing".

If IB was charging $3.00 per option and Tradier .50 cents then I would have no choice but to move over to them.

But the difference is SO small compared to what I would be giving up right now by disrupting my routine.

Edited February 2, 2017 by cuegis