Brokers and commissions

[rasar]

TD Ameritrade/ThinkorSwim appears to be having problems.

 

ToS has been freezing off and on this morning, and their support phone number responded with a very short and crisp "Sorry we're having trouble. Please call back later." message.

They issued 2 updates over the weekend, which probably caused the issues.

[aldem]

1 minute ago, rasar said:

TD Ameritrade/ThinkorSwim appears to be having problems.

 

ToS has been freezing off and on this morning, and their support phone number responded with a very short and crisp "Sorry we're having trouble. Please call back later." message.

They issued 2 updates over the weekend, which probably caused the issues.

I can't login to my desktop app, but mobile works fine (iOS)

[Gen88]

I’m having same issue. Mobile app is doing fine fortunately.

[rasar]

Just now, aldem said:

I can't login to my desktop app, but mobile works fine (iOS)

Unfortunately my ancient Android version doesn't allow me to use ToS mobile.

[srf335]

Same here.  iOS works, and also their new web app at thinkorswim.com is working on PC (but whole new interface to learn).

[rasar]

10 minutes ago, srf335 said:

and also their new web app at thinkorswim.com is working on PC (but whole new interface to learn).

Good to know. Thanks. I checked it out, and although it's frustrating, at least I'm not totally stuck.

[QuickNick]

@rasar  ToS mobile app is amazing on iOS.  If it’s similar on Android, then I would seriously consider upgrading to a Droid that can run it.  It has way more features than their new online version of ToS and it always works, unlike the desktop app. 

[rasar]

They rolled back ToS to the pre-update version. It's coming back up now.

[rasar]

Just now, QuickNick said:

@rasar  ToS mobile app is amazing on iOS.  If it’s similar on Android, then I would seriously consider upgrading to a Droid that can run it.  It has way more features than their new online version of ToS and it always works, unlike the desktop app. 

Yes, I had been using it as a standby for a few years. I'm not a mobile person, and unfortunately, for the way I work, the mobile app would have me going looney-tunes.

[Alan]

5 hours ago, rasar said:

They rolled back ToS to the pre-update version. It's coming back up now.

@rasar, I take it your desktop version came back up. The market just closed. Mine never came back up.

 

I finally was able to get access. Lucky that I had no major action to take. In the meantime I have been attempting to learn how to use the web-based platform.

Edited August 17, 2020 by Alan

[rasar]

8 minutes ago, Alan said:

@rasar, I take it your desktop version came back up. The market just closed. Mine never came back up.

 

I finally was able to get access. Lucky that I had no major action to take. In the meantime I have been attempting to learn how to use the web-based platform.

The desktop did come up, but it went back and forth. It's down again.

About the web-based app. Be careful - IMO it's horrendously over-simiplistic and over-prettied.

I tried to use it and it was extremely wrong and inconsistent in how it constructs the order ticket, and how it's received by the backend.

I called tech support, and they were able to replicate it. To give you an idea, see these screen shots.

[rasar]

17 hours ago, rasar said:

The desktop did come up, but it went back and forth. It's down again.

ToS is still flaky - up and down this morning. Currently down again.

[srf335]

42 minutes ago, rasar said:

ToS is still flaky - up and down this morning. Currently down again.

Really frustrating this morning, as normal ToS app is totally down now (stuck showing "downloading updates") and the web app is updating at a speed like I'm on an old '90s dial-up line...

Seems this is a backend problem for them since affecting two methods of access, but curious if you are using a PC or Mac.  I'm on Mac, and trying to rule out any issue on my end, thanks.

[rasar]

7 minutes ago, srf335 said:

Seems this is a backend problem for them since affecting two methods of access, but curious if you are using a PC or Mac.  I'm on Mac, and trying to rule out any issue on my end, thanks.

I'm on a PC. Right now ToS won't even start (I shut it down in the hope that it might fix something). I did notice that the ToS client (front-end), which was updated over the weekend, remains the same. You'd think they would roll you back to the pre-upgrade version.

Luckily I had decided to open a Tradier account the last time this happened. So while my TOS trades are tough to manage, I can at least look at and analyze stuff on ONE, using Tradier as the feed.

Edited August 18, 2020 by rasar
typo

[MoneyMonkey]

2 minutes ago, rasar said:

I'm on a PC. IRight now ToS won't even start (I shut it down in the hope that it might fix something). I did notice that the ToS client (front-end), which was updated over the weekend, remains the same. You'd think they would roll you back to the pre-upgrade version.

Luckily I had decided to open a Tradier account the last time this happened. So while my TOS trades are tough to manage, I can at least look at and analyze stuff on ONE, using Tradier as the feed.

On a PC here and TOS will not open.  Just hangs at the "Installing updates..." screen.

[swsam]

Same here. We got to diversify brokers. Seems a lot of folks use IB any other suggestions ?

[rasar]

1 minute ago, swsam said:

Same here. We got to diversify brokers. Seems a lot of folks use IB any other suggestions ?

See prior discussions on this thread. IB, Tradier and ToS seem to be the most prevalent... Also TastyWorks.

Edited August 18, 2020 by rasar
added TW

[sakura]

If you click on the "Installing updates..." line, it will show the stack trace. Seems to be a connectivity issue (SocketTimeOutException):

 

This is on a Mac, btw.

 

Mobile app is working.

Edited August 18, 2020 by sakura

[rasar]

Just now, sakura said:

f you click on the "Installing updates..." line, it will show the stack trace. Seems to be a connectivity issue

Yup. Leaving it running slows down the PC, though, as it keeps re-trying. Anyway. I guess I'll just wait and try it every 30 minutes or so.

[swsam]

1 minute ago, sakura said:

If you click on the "Installing updates..." line, it will show the stack trace. Seems to be a connectivity issue (SocketTimeOutException):

 

I have the same issue, looks like TD ameritrade ToS servers are down, ping timed out. Looks like it is affecting global customers, USA, EU and Asian servers are down.

[rasar]

4 minutes ago, swsam said:

, looks like TD ameritrade ToS servers are down

I finally got through on the phone. The problem has been narrowed to a particular server which they thought they had fixed yesterday. They are in the process of routing around that server and restarting the system.

[swsam]

8 minutes ago, rasar said:

I finally got through on the phone. The problem has been narrowed to a particular server which they thought they had fixed yesterday. They are in the process of routing around that server and restarting the system.

They operate on a  virtual machine that distribute ToS traffic to physical machines. The issue I noticed this morning as I was able to login for about 10 minutes before it crashed is that the internal servers redirects are corrupted. Someone must have pushed an exploit code into the internal server, the timing of the forced update on Monday morning at 9:00 AM is very suspicious.

[rasar]

Does anyone here know how to pull data from Tradier into Excel, using their APIs ?

[rasar]

3 hours ago, rasar said:

I finally got through on the phone. The problem has been narrowed to a particular server which they thought they had fixed yesterday. They are in the process of routing around that server and restarting the system.

Looks like ToS is back up.

[srf335]

Nothing material in the link, but word is getting out....  https://www.reuters.com/article/us-td-ameritrade-trading/td-ameritrade-trading-platform-thinkorswim-hit-by-systems-glitch-idUSKCN25E2A3

Not being able to resolve or roll back to stable in over a day is not a good sign.

Really not looking forward to moving 4 accounts to another broker, but this may be the straw...

[rasar]

1 minute ago, srf335 said:

Really not looking forward to moving 4 accounts to another broker, but this may be the straw...

Instead of that, diversify. You never know - that other broker could be (probably is) worse. You just haven't learned to hate them yet 😄.

[srf335]

 

2 minutes ago, rasar said:

Looks like ToS is back up.

Are you getting live data?  App will open now, but no data.

[rasar]

1 minute ago, srf335 said:

 

Are you getting live data?  App will open now, but no data.

Got option chain data. No charts.

Edited August 18, 2020 by rasar
clarified data

[srf335]

Just now, rasar said:

Instead of that, diversify. You never know - that other broker could be (probably is) worse. You just haven't learned to hate them yet 😄.

Indeed, it definitely is a "devil you know" with brokerages in my experience.

 

[srf335]

All appear to be back up now, but suspicious of orders getting through.  Have a couple of "buys" I just walked up above the ask and still not getting filled.

[srf335]

Wow, looks like they have a backlog.  Now getting fill notifications for orders at prices that were a couple of cancel/replace's ago...

[QuickNick]

@rasar Schwab / StreetSmart Edge could be an ideal backup broker to ToS for you.  Their desktop app is feature rich, loads quickly, it’s stable and their customer service is top notch.  Also, their web app, StreetSmart Central, is arguable best in class IMHO.  Both apps have been glitch free for me so far.  They offer direct access smart routing and retain the among lowest amount of payment for order flow when they do route through one of their 6 wholesalers.  They’ll also have a significant in house order execution advantage after completing the TDA merger in few years.  From what I read, both platforms will remain for a couple to a few years.  The  there should be one platform with the best combined features.  My favorite unique feature of theirs so far is the Walk Limit order.  A great promo they’re offering is 500 free option trades up to 20 contracts each if you move over $100k. 
 

Runner up if you want a simple but innovative platform is TastyWorks.  Their user interface is intuitive, their analysis features are the best I’ve seen from a broker and they have other unique features that may help make option trading a little easier.  However, it’s not quite a fully mature platform yet, so occasionally they roll out features with glitches for a while.  Also, they may be missing a basic feature that you use in your ToS workflow.  Their fees end up above average because they add on so much for exchange fees.  They don’t offer direct access order routing, but their execution is still pretty good with the 4 wholesalers they use.  Also, their customer service is good.  Personally though, I would revisit using them as your backup in a few years after the ToS / SSE  platforms are supposed to be combined.  Maybe by then they waive the exchange fees and their software will will be more mature like SSE.  

 

Runner up if you don’t mind complexity and lacking customer service is IB. Their fees are slightly higher after accounting exchange fees, minimum fees and data fees. However, their professional grade features and their direct market access smart routing may result in making more money on trades.  

Edited August 22, 2020 by QuickNick
On SSE, direct access orders appears to only be for single leg trades. Same for bracket orders.

[Motion]

@QuickNick and everyone else - any experiences or info to share on Tradestation or TradeZero America, particularly around order execution?  Thanks. 

Edited September 20, 2020 by Motion

[rasar]

I just came across this article concerning ToS and Schwab's intentions. On the face of it it appears there was some debate about retaining ToS as part of the TDA/Schwab merger. As per this article, it seems they have decided to keep it, but "integrate" it into their existing platform (somehow).

https://www.investors.com/etfs-and-funds/personal-finance/thinkorswim-sunk-now-that-schwab-owns-td-ameritrade/?src=A00220&yptr=yahoo

Based on my experience as a former IT guy, it it reasonable to expect hiccups before, during and after the integration. There have already been a couple of such issues in the recent past, and knowing that ToS was itself procured by TDA (and not developed by them) should be a concern during Schwab's' integration..

Personally, I've already begun diversifying my reliance on any single platform by opening an acccount at Tradier. I still like ToS, but I'm not as infatuated with it as I once was.

[QuickNick]

@Motion  Sorry I missed this question from you last month.  Tradestation is a pretty cool platform because you can do automation on it and it integrates with Trading View charting.  From what I researched, their options order execution quality is average to above average. 

I haven't researched TradeZero America, but the name gives me caution.  The "free" and ultra-low cost brokers usually end up actually costing you a lot more than the best brokers because you may tend to miss more fills on good trades.  As well, on the trades that do get filled, they retain more payment for order flow to pay their bills, instead of returning it to the trader as price improvement.  It's a shell game and usually, people that play shell games are hiding something that's not to your benefit.  The straight forward brokers like Interactive Brokers and Schwab usually end up making you a lot more money than the little you thought you might save with the "free" brokers. 

[Ringandpinion]

@rasarDidn't you get "a personal message from Chuck Schwab" telling you it was all going to be just fine?  I guess I'm just more important.😁

[rasar]

4 hours ago, Ringandpinion said:

@rasarDidn't you get "a personal message from Chuck Schwab" telling you it was all going to be just fine?  I guess I'm just more important.😁

I did, right after I posted my message above ! It's like when spread prices jump right after @Yowster posts his trades, or when @Kim posts a response a few seconds before I hit "Submit" on mine. Chuck and Kim are watching me.

[Ringandpinion]

2 minutes ago, rasar said:

I did, right after I posted my message above ! It's like when spread prices jump right after @Yowster posts his trades, or when @Kim posts a response a few seconds before I hit "Submit" on mine. Chuck and Kim are watching me.

You need to put a piece of tape over the pickup on your webcam and microphone, just unplugging them isn't enough.  And I can get you a good deal on a stainless steel colander to block those nasty mind control waves.

 

On a more serious note, I've renewed my subscription to ONE.  Like you, having a backup broker would be great, but I found having two completely separate trading platforms to be a little cumbersome.  I'm thinking of using ONE and having two different brokers I can trade through.  I also think that ONE may handle the multi-legged creatures we create at SO better, especially P&L on trades that have been changed in any way since inception.  We'll see how well this brilliant idea works out.

[rasar]

2 minutes ago, Ringandpinion said:

Like you, having a backup broker would be great, but I found having two completely separate trading platforms to be a little cumbersome

I agree to an extent. I went through a ToS/TastyWorks situation for a few months, and I admit it caused some anxiety intially - mainly because it was around the same time I started at SO, so I was learning all kinds of stuff at the same time. However, after a while it setled down. Now, I trade on ToS, and Tradier (web), and don't feel as stressed about it, except for the times when I forget I have a trade on one of them.

My goal is to migrate to Trade Hawk, but leave ToS in my hip pocket as a "trusted" but jaded friend, feeding it a few trades every now and then.

[Alan]

2 hours ago, rasar said:

My goal is to migrate to Trade Hawk, but leave ToS in my hip pocket as a "trusted" but jaded friend, feeding it a few trades every now and then.

@rasar I am with tos and have used them for years. There have been a few hiccups, but, by and large, I have no complaints. That said, as being discussed, it might be good to start using another a broker as a backup just in case.

 

So, since you mentioned having used TastyWorks and recently Tradier, I am curious as to why you are planning to migrate to Trade Hawk.

Edited October 8, 2020 by Alan

[Ringandpinion]

@Alan@rasar I haven't used any other platform than IB.  Over the past couple of years I have used less of TOS's special features but back 20 years ago TOS was light years ahead of the others and free.  I know TastyWorks is designed by the same guy with the funny hat but my reading has led me to believe it is not much different from TOS.  I would be interested as well in opinions about the other platforms.  My present strategy is to learn ONE and see if I can become comfortable with it, then take them up on the Tradier flat rate to see if that really works out as advertised.   And I'll keep TOS around too.

 

I have a working relationship with one of the retail salesman at TDA, he said that the word around there is that commissions will disappear altogether after the Schwab/TDA merger is completed, which is pretty much now.

[sakura]

26 minutes ago, Ringandpinion said:

have a working relationship with one of the retail salesman at TDA, he said that the word around there is that commissions will disappear altogether after the Schwab/TDA merger is completed, which is pretty much now.

@Ringandpinion, Great to have a guy on the inside! Did your guy/gall at TDA mention a specific time when commissions will disappear? "Pretty much now", I read. But do customers have to ask for it? Just checking if you know more ;-).

[Ringandpinion]

15 minutes ago, sakura said:

@Ringandpinion, Great to have a guy on the inside! Did your guy/gall at TDA mention a specific time when commissions will disappear? "Pretty much now", I read. But do customers have to ask for it? Just checking if you know more ;-).

The conversation took place probably in July and he just said "later this year around October when the merger is complete" (paraphrasing).  I got the impression that it was going to be across the board, eliminating commissions for everyone.  I'm sure they'll still pass on "fees".  Someone earlier in this thread mentioned the "free" trading is just a shell game, they'll make up the cost somewhere else, I agree 100%.  TANSTAAFL - there ain't no such thing as a free lunch.  We'll end up paying for it somewhere else.

 

The TOS outages a couple of months ago came right after I closed my IB accounts and was down to one broker.  If any of my trades had needed immediate attention I would not have been able to hedge or compensate in another account.  That would have sucked.

[QuickNick]

@Ringandpinion  I highly recommend TastyWorks.  I still use them as my backup broker and will be using them as my main broker after my 500 free trades with Schwab is over.  
 

TastyWorks is the least cumbersome platform for trading options IMHO.  I haven’t even gotten into analyzing trades on ONE because TW makes it so easy to analyze trades and move around the legs to see the effect.  TW also adds up your gains/losses on a multi-step trade easily in the history tab.  You just click to highlight the parts of the trade you want summed up and it does it for you instantly.  Their exchange fees are higher than most brokers, but they’re probably more in line with Interactive Brokers.  However, if Schwab/TDA goes to zero commissions, then I’d bet TW drops their round trip commission to 50c to open and $0 to close instead of $1.00 so they stay competitive.  Also, their execution quality is among the best in class from my experience.  Tom Sosnoff and some of his teammates were market makers for a decades before they created ToS and then created TastyWorks brokerage platforms. So, they know better than most anyone how to get the best fills and price improvement.  In fact, they pride themselves in the reliability of TW during high vol  times when older platforms glitch out because their backend systems can’t and the amount of data.  TW also executes trade well at market open and close in my experience.  A lot better than ToS and a little better than StreetSmart Edge. They’ve confirmed it’s because of their newer and more advanced architecture than how they built ToS a couple decades ago.  It gives them more speed, capacity and future capabilities.  In fact, I strongly suspect Schwab will upgrade to better front and backend systems like TWs when they integrate ToS.  If they don’t, then it will leave them at a major disadvantage regarding reliability and order execution.  Especially if they drop option commissions to zero and bring in a flood of active option traders like they did when they dropped stock trading to zero commission.

TW’s head of trading was even cool enough to call me personally and answer my detailed questions about their order execution.  They don’t use or offer elaborate algos like IB.  They believe more in speed and reliability.  Their trading operations team is constantly monitoring which market maker(s) are giving the best fills and they flow most of their orders to the one(s) that are doing the best job for them.  Their order flow doesn’t overwhelm one or two market makers because it’s millions, not billions. They’re even cutting a market maker named Wolverine that I’ve seen other brokers are still using and they’re looking to add Sequoia to their list soon.  
 

The whole platform was created primarily for making option trading easier and the improvements they implement do that too.  Everyone you’ll interact with at TastyWorks is an option trader, so the customer service excellent and insightful. The free trade ideas from a couple dozen of their traders compliment the SO strategy well because they’re short Vega.  
 

Side note, the only free lunch I’ve found in my broker research is active stock (not option) trading on Fidelity.  Top notch stock order execution speed and reliability for $0, PLUS the rebate 99% of the payment for order flow to the trader as price improvement.  They’re losing money on this to attract more assets to their wealth management platforms.  I’m sure the data shows that the majority of active traders tire out and end up wanting a managed account.  

Edited October 8, 2020 by QuickNick

[Ringandpinion]

@QuickNickThanks for the info.  What you said makes total sense, TOS (and IB TWS) are both based on an older version of Java that initially gave my Linux OS indigestion.  Funny hat guy (I can't remember his name) obviously knows his stuff and it will be interesting to see what he has come up with, again.  I will probably look at TW in my copious spare time in the near future.

 

Right now I'm test driving  ONE, again.  If I like it, I will see how their Tradier commission offset deal goes.

[rasar]

13 hours ago, rasar said:

My goal is to migrate to Trade Hawk

IS anyone aware of a working support number for TradeHawk ? The number listed on their tutorial videos (844-333-HAWK) is out of service.

[CJ912]

 

Give Tradier a call, they might be able to help you

980-272-3880

[rasar]

1 minute ago, CJ912 said:

 

Give Tradier a call, they might be able to help you

980-272-3880

I already did. Thanks. Theirs is only rudimentary support, which is why I asked. It's worriesome if a trading platform doesn't have a working support number.

[CJ912]

I used tradehawk, but moved to ONE 😉

[Ringandpinion]

2 hours ago, CJ912 said:

I used tradehawk, but moved to ONE 😉

Am I missing something?  I'm working with ONE now and can't change the candle time period from days.  I can move the chart period from 1 month to 5 years but not the candles.  I know it is here, I just can't seem to find it.