Brokers and commissions

[drcrc]

1 hour ago, Stanislav said:

@drcrc, I think @Bull3t007 has already given a very comprehensive answer to your question. What I do - I prepare a combo orders using ONE software, and then modify "OCA Group" column in TWS Mosaic in a window where orders are displayed ("OCA Group" column needs to be added manually using a similar procedure as in the video above😞

@Bull3t007 @stanislav thank you so much for your help! It's amazing that IB doesn't even know their own platform. You have saved me having to change brokers, thank you again you rock

[Marc Swiss]

3 hours ago, CJ912 said:

Maybe I am misreading you, but it seems that should work witrh OT-OCO.I have to say that I am no fan of tradehawk at all. Am actually considering moving to ONE with Tradier.

I find ONE an awesome software to analyse the the trades, check option chains, track performance of the trades.... BUT order management... hmmm....!? Yes, you can commit an order to your broker if it supported. But you can't even change the price for your order from within ONE once the order is committed, you need to go to your broker trading interface to do so. 

--> I'hope someone tells me I'm full of shit an explains me how it's done but I haven't seen the functionality within ONE yet.

[srf335]

Are any other ToS users seeing their platform totally down right now?  Just got kicked off and won't reload on desktop or mobile.

[srf335]

Looks like a ToS platform problem.  I am able to login to TD Ameritrade account and see active data.

[srf335]

Answered my own question - definitely down right now: https://downdetector.com/status/td-ameritrade/

 

[rasar]

12 minutes ago, srf335 said:

Answered my own question - definitely down right now: https://downdetector.com/status/td-ameritrade/

 

Yup. Luckily I got an alert in my email and on my phone that an order had filled, with no notification on ToS. I had to use the web interface to add more legs. Phone support must be swamped - I've been on hol for a while. I guess I should hang up - there's no point in adding to the flood of calls.

[srf335]

Yeah, doing the same now.  Holy crap, it's like learning a whole new platform using the website - have never used for trading before - took 5 min just to figure out where my watchlists were...

 

Quick question.  I just recently started actively trading again after a 5-6 year pause when my work schedule didn't allow.  I just picked up again with ToS which was where my capital was and what I had used in the past.  I don't ever recall being offline for more than 5 minutes in the past.  Is this outage today rare, or is it a more frequent occurrence these days?  Thanks!

 

 

[rasar]

1 minute ago, srf335 said:

Yeah, doing the same now.  Holy crap, it's like learning a whole new platform using the website - have never used for trading before - took 5 min just to figure out where my watchlists were...

 

Quick question.  I just recently started actively trading again after a 5-6 year pause when my work schedule didn't allow.  I just picked up again with ToS which was where my capital was and what I had used in the past.  I don't ever recall being offline for more than 5 minutes in the past.  Is this outage today rare, or is it a more frequent occurrence these days?  Thanks!

 

 

I've never known it to be down like this in the last 3-4 years that I've been using it extensively. And it's worse for me because the mobile version is useless since the current version of the app is not supported Android phone. Oh. it looks like it's coming back up.....

 

[Kim]

This is one f the reasons I like IB. I cannot really remember when was the last time the platform was down. Even during the flash crash of 2011 it was up and running. (Of course you couldn't really do any trades due to huge spreads, but the platform was functional)

[srf335]

Thanks for the feedback, and yes, it just came back up for me in past 2-3 minutes.

 

[rasar]

I'm actually in the midst of diversifying my brokerages for exactly this scenario. I signed up for Tradier a couple of weeks ago, but unfortunately hadn't finished funding my account.

[Javier]

On 4/7/2020 at 9:35 PM, Marc Swiss said:

I find ONE an awesome software to analyse the the trades, check option chains, track performance of the trades.... BUT order management... hmmm....!? Yes, you can commit an order to your broker if it supported. But you can't even change the price for your order from within ONE once the order is committed, you need to go to your broker trading interface to do so. 

--> I'hope someone tells me I'm full of shit an explains me how it's done but I haven't seen the functionality within ONE yet.

Maybe I am wrong, but:

I am using ONE with Tradier and IB since long ago, and as far as I know, once You send the order out of ONE, You can do nothing. I usually end transactions either in IB or Tradier directly and come back to ONE to set up the final trade manually. One glitters in analyzing new strategies and kind of monitoring, but it is far away from being fully integrated.

[Marc Swiss]

10 hours ago, Javier said:

Maybe I am wrong, but:

I am using ONE with Tradier and IB since long ago, and as far as I know, once You send the order out of ONE, You can do nothing. I usually end transactions either in IB or Tradier directly and come back to ONE to set up the final trade manually. One glitters in analyzing new strategies and kind of monitoring, but it is far away from being fully integrated.

Thats exactly my experience as well. It's a bit of a pity since it really wouldn't take "much" order management functionality to make ONE a true one-stop-shop solution for SO members.

For my IB account I'm quite happy with the combo TWS + ONE, since TWS is very powerful and stable and comes at NO extra cost. 

For tradier, the Dash web interface is finde if you have only a handful  of positions on but after that I find it a bit cumbersome since there is no nice position grouping. 

--> I'm currently testing Tradehawk to see if that does the job and is worth the extra 30$ a month.

[yelmalem]

 

Hi Guys, I currently use Robinhood to trade options commission-free, but was wondering if anyone knows of other platforms that are better to use over Robinhood. 

What are the pros and cons of using Robinhood for trading options and do other platforms, with commissions, offer better services and more opportunity to profit with options trading? 

 

[pintodave]

23 hours ago, rasar said:

I've never known it to be down like this in the last 3-4 years that I've been using it extensively. And it's worse for me because the mobile version is useless since the current version of the app is not supported Android phone. Oh. it looks like it's coming back up.....

 

Which android phone/platform are you using and to confirm, you are US based? I am using TOS Mobile and it works really well (Samsung S8), they've improved it a lot over years ago. I just looked and it says there is an update available for the app, now you've freaked me out and I don't want to install the update LOL. 

[rasar]

4 minutes ago, pintodave said:

Which android phone/platform are you using and to confirm, you are US based? I am using TOS Mobile and it works really well (Samsung S8), they've improved it a lot over years ago. I just looked and it says there is an update available for the app, now you've freaked me out and I don't want to install the update LOL. 

Sorry - I was in a hurry to finish typing that last message, and I missed some text. I agree the mobile platform has been rock solid. It's just that I have an older Samsung, running Android 6, which they dropped earlier this year. If you're current on your Android, there's no reason not to to update it.

[Javier]

On 4/14/2020 at 7:49 AM, Marc Swiss said:

Thats exactly my experience as well. It's a bit of a pity since it really wouldn't take "much" order management functionality to make ONE a true one-stop-shop solution for SO members.

For my IB account I'm quite happy with the combo TWS + ONE, since TWS is very powerful and stable and comes at NO extra cost. 

For tradier, the Dash web interface is finde if you have only a handful  of positions on but after that I find it a bit cumbersome since there is no nice position grouping. 

--> I'm currently testing Tradehawk to see if that does the job and is worth the extra 30$ a month.

Marc, straight from Optionnet, stating one of the features I was supporting will be included in next beta delivery:

 

Improve integration for sending and managing broker orders

 

When sending order to broker, ONE should not commit the trade until the order is filled. I would also like to be able to do all of my order management from ONE including tracking open orders, inputting my closing orders based on my profit and loss targets, and changing open orders. This kind of functionality would allow me to use a broker like Tradier which doesn't have a native trading platform.

 

 

(No Status) → Completed

Enhanced order management is currently undergoing internal testing and will be rolled out in an upcoming beta version.

Andy Developer, OptionNET Explorer

Let’s see.

 

[Marc Swiss]

39 minutes ago, Javier said:

Marc, straight from Optionnet, stating one of the features I was supporting will be included in next beta delivery:

 

Improve integration for sending and managing broker orders

 

When sending order to broker, ONE should not commit the trade until the order is filled. I would also like to be able to do all of my order management from ONE including tracking open orders, inputting my closing orders based on my profit and loss targets, and changing open orders. This kind of functionality would allow me to use a broker like Tradier which doesn't have a native trading platform.

 

 

(No Status) → Completed

Enhanced order management is currently undergoing internal testing and will be rolled out in an upcoming beta version.

Andy  Developer, OptionNET Explorer

Let’s see.

 

Thx for the information Javier, I'm really really looking forward to testing this 🙂 

--> in fact I just gave the quoted ONE future request my votes yesterday and was thinking of opening a dedicated SO forum thread to persuade SO ONE members to vote for it. Good to know that this is no longer necessary 😉

The order management, options tower, spread handling, for Tradier via TradeHawk I find to be quite useful. The rest not really... the Mobile Application is just plain shameful .

 

 

 

[yelmalem]

Hey, does anybody know how to trade multi-leg options strategies in Client Portal on Interactive Brokers? I like using that interface more than the WebTrader product, but don't see any 'Strategy Builder' options in Client Portal. Additionally, are there any key disadvantages in using Client Portal vs. WebTrader to place my options trades? Additionally, are the fees the same b/w WebTrader and Client Portal? Can I still use SMART routing?

Edited April 20, 2020 by yelmalem

[rigulator]

@Arthur and @Kim Surfing around the web I found the broker choicetrade.com that might be interesting: They have a cap of provisions after 50$ per month and below 40ct/contract. On top they offer different frontend software of which "Choicetrade Elite" doesn't look too bad (supporting up to 4 leg trades) and that is free having > 30K$ account size.

So why am I telling you? First of all I remember Kim complaining about being rejected from tradier as Canadian citizen and choicetrade accepts foreign customers, maybe even Canadians:-) . And for Arthur it might be interesting because of German tax laws: You can apply as LLC (what doesn't work with tradier) and actually I asked them, whether it also works with German LLC-equivalent (GmbH). Then we would have the possibility to trade with flat fee as a company without having to suffer from complete insane tax-regulations as individuals (from 2021 on). I'll keep you up!

 

[rigulator]

33 minutes ago, rigulator said:

@Arthur and @Kim Surfing around the web I found the broker choicetrade.com that might be interesting: They have a cap of provisions after 50$ per month and below 40ct/contract. On top they offer different frontend software of which "Choicetrade Elite" doesn't look too bad (supporting up to 4 leg trades) and that is free having > 30K$ account size.

So why am I telling you? First of all I remember Kim complaining about being rejected from tradier as Canadian citizen and choicetrade accepts foreign customers, maybe even Canadians:-) . And for Arthur it might be interesting because of German tax laws: You can apply as LLC (what doesn't work with tradier) and actually I asked them, whether it also works with German LLC-equivalent (GmbH). Then we would have the possibility to trade with flat fee as a company without having to suffer from complete insane tax-regulations as individuals (from 2021 on). I'll keep you up!

 

Just now I received the answer: Thank you for your inquiry. Yes we accept corporate accounts from your country. However, the approval process takes a little longer than for an individual account, which is generally same day. Please apply here: https://application2.choicetrade.com/#/settings

 

Once you select your country, you will be able to click on Specialty, then Corporate and then you may proceed with the rest of the application. Once we receive your online application, you will receive an email asking for more documents such as the creation documents for your company.

 

Please give the link above to your friends as well. It is a slightly different application from the one for an individual account so they will need to use this link if they want to apply for a corporate account.

 

 

[Kim]

Thank you @rigulator Canada is not in the list sadly..

[rigulator]

4 minutes ago, Kim said:

Thank you @rigulator Canada is not in the list sadly..

What's wrong with money from Canadian customers:-)

[Kim]

Just now, rigulator said:

What's wrong with money from Canadian customers:-)

Regulations.. this is why the only major broker that operates in Canada is IB.

[mccoyb53]

5 hours ago, rigulator said:

@Arthur and @Kim Surfing around the web I found the broker choicetrade.com that might be interesting: They have a cap of provisions after 50$ per month and below 40ct/contract. On top they offer different frontend software of which "Choicetrade Elite" doesn't look too bad (supporting up to 4 leg trades) and that is free having > 30K$ account size.

So why am I telling you? First of all I remember Kim complaining about being rejected from tradier as Canadian citizen and choicetrade accepts foreign customers, maybe even Canadians:-) . And for Arthur it might be interesting because of German tax laws: You can apply as LLC (what doesn't work with tradier) and actually I asked them, whether it also works with German LLC-equivalent (GmbH). Then we would have the possibility to trade with flat fee as a company without having to suffer from complete insane tax-regulations as individuals (from 2021 on). I'll keep you up!

 

Hi @rigulator. Thanks for the info. Very much appreciated. Have you compared their commissions and fees to IB. Keep safe.

[rigulator]

@mccoyb53As mentioned before, the most relevant costs for me are the commissions because SteadyOption-Strategies tend to be quite commission-intensive. The commissions for Options and Stocks are capped to max. 50$/month, below that 40ct/contract. Other fees seem to be quite similar to tradier and will effectively have no relevant impact, as long as you don't need weekly withdrawals. Considering the need of additional software using tradier and the fact, that choicetrade offers (at first glance useful) software for free, costs tend to be quite equal on the long run. There are additional costs for foreign customers (10$/month), but I think using tradier either.

If you are happy with tradier I don't see a reason to change, but if you're forced to trade as corporation as we are doomed in Germany, this seems to be a good alternative. Maybe @Kim might consider to negotiate a deal for SO-Members, then it might be even cheaper than tradier and be interesting for other members as well. That said, actually I'm OK with tradier but not happy with neither ONE (because of lack of order and position management) nor tradehawk (where I'm painfully missing a useful P/L graph like in ONE). I'll give Choicetrade Elite a try ...

Edited April 24, 2020 by rigulator

[Stanislav]

@rigulator, thanks for bringing to our attention ChoiceTrade brokerage firm - looks like they support a lot of countries, so this might be an option for foreign traders. Would be interesting to hear your experience with this broker. They claim they are on the market since 2000, but I never heard anything about ChoiceTrade before.

A couple of observations:

1. They have also Foreign Entity Annual Review $200/yearly fee - not sure if this means an additional $200/yr charges for every foreign individual account:

 

Foreign Entity Annual Review Fee

$200

 

2. I was not able to find on ChoiceTrade's web page any info who is their clearing firm. This is a bit strange.

 

 

[Stanislav]

UPD: I've just found ChoiceTrade's Business Continuity Plan mentions that their clearing firm is: Electronic Transaction Clearing, www.etc-clearing.com. www.etc-clearing.com web site redirects to https://apexpro.com/. Not sure if this is the same APEX that clears Tradier or something else. Probably Apex Pro is a different clearing firm.

 

https://www.choicetrade.com/legal.php?page=bizcont

"If you cannot access us through either of those means, you should contact our clearing firm, Electronic Transaction Clearing, at 213-402-1570 or www.etc-clearing.com to obtain access to your funds or securities."

[yelmalem]

Are there any downsides to trading options in Robinhood? They have zero commissions which is huge and offer a simplistic and easy to use mobile and desktop interface. 

Is the execution worse on Robinhood relative to other brokers?

Also, I havent heard much about TradeStation in this forum page. Is anyone using Tradestation?

[Peeyotch]

2 hours ago, yelmalem said:

Are there any downsides to trading options in Robinhood? They have zero commissions which is huge and offer a simplistic and easy to use mobile and desktop interface. 

Is the execution worse on Robinhood relative to other brokers?

Also, I havent heard much about TradeStation in this forum page. Is anyone using Tradestation?

Google "Robinhood outages" and you'll get all the info you need regarding why you shouldn't use Robinhood. People lost millions of dollars from being unable to trade on some of the most volatile days in memory and only having an email address to theoretically reach a trading desk. Also Google "Robinhood infinite leverage" if you want a laugh. They aren't a serious outfit. 

[TrustyJules]

On 4/26/2020 at 1:47 AM, Peeyotch said:

Google "Robinhood outages" and you'll get all the info you need regarding why you shouldn't use Robinhood. People lost millions of dollars from being unable to trade on some of the most volatile days in memory and only having an email address to theoretically reach a trading desk. Also Google "Robinhood infinite leverage" if you want a laugh. They aren't a serious outfit. 

The infinite leverage story is funny except its actually tragic.

[Gen88]

Have anyone tried reconciling Tradier trades using Apex clearing data dump? Trying to understand how the transactions  translate over to SO trades. Thanks.

[RapperT]

One thing I've noticed over last few days of searching for alternatives to IB due to better pricing:  if you want to be able to trade basically any instrument in the same account as a retail trader, IB still seems to be the best option at this point.

 

Tasty works has limited futures contracts and most brokers that offer more extensive futures trading require a separate account (like ToS, etrade, etc).

 

I would be interested to hear about alternatives if anyone knows of any

 

 

[Kim]

11 minutes ago, RapperT said:

One thing I've noticed over last few days of searching for alternatives to IB due to better pricing:  if you want to be able to trade basically any instrument in the same account as a retail trader, IB still seems to be the best option at this point.

 

Tasty works has limited futures contracts and most brokers that offer more extensive futures trading require a separate account (like ToS, etrade, etc).

 

I would be interested to hear about alternatives if anyone knows of any

 

 

I did not do a comprehensive research, but it seems to me that as a package (combination of commissions, platform, execution, trading abilities etc.) IB still offers the best package overall. Their commissions are not the lowest, but I average around 0.70/contract. tastyworks is 0.50/contracts ($1 to open free to close), but they have other fees (I believe they charge for assignment and exercise) plus significantly higher margin rates. 

Two big drawdowns of IB: terrible customer service and draconian margin call treatment. 

[RapperT]

I know this is very unsexy but I also bought some corporate debt over the last several weeks and some of the option trading shops dont give traders access to fixed income.

 

I really like that IB offers everything but agree that customer service stinks and i also dislike their antiquated UI (though i know others love it)

[vitalsign0]

8 minutes ago, Kim said:

but they have other fees (I believe they charge for assignment and exercise) plus significantly higher margin rates. 

They do, $5 for assignment\exercise. Because of that I do covered calls in an etrade account.

[rasar]

29 minutes ago, RapperT said:

most brokers that offer more extensive futures trading require a separate account (like ToS, etrade, etc).

Out of curiosity, did  you mean a separate account just to trade futures ? I don't trade futures, but I ask because my ToS account presents me with a Futures Trader tab, which appears to allow such trades.

[RapperT]

Just now, rasar said:

Out of curiosity, did  you mean a separate account just to trade futures ? I don't trade futures, but I ask because my ToS account presents me with a Futures Trader tab, which appears to allow such trades.

It used to be the case that you needed a separate account on ToS...not sure about currently.

 

From what I can tell, ToS comes closest to IB in terms of ability to trade whatever you want

[rasar]

Just now, RapperT said:

It used to be the case that you needed a separate account on ToS...not sure about currently.

 

From what I can tell, ToS comes closest to IB in terms of ability to trade whatever you want

Right. In fact I just went back to my regular trading tab in ToS, and it offers Futures, and Options on Futures. The commission rates can be negotiated down quite significantly, and there are no assignment or exercise fees - at least for equity/etf options.

[RapperT]

1 minute ago, rasar said:

Right. In fact I just went back to my regular trading tab in ToS, and it offers Futures, and Options on Futures. The commission rates can be negotiated down quite significantly, and there are no assignment or exercise fees - at least for equity/etf options.

thats great!  thanks for heads up.  Do you see real time quotes for ICE contracts?  If not do you mind checking how much that data sub costs?

[Djtux]

15 minutes ago, RapperT said:

I know this is very unsexy but I also bought some corporate debt over the last several weeks and some of the option trading shops dont give traders access to fixed income.

 

I really like that IB offers everything but agree that customer service stinks and i also dislike their antiquated UI (though i know others love it)

Made some money on preferred shares, and corporate bonds on tesla in the past as well.

It's hard to beat IB for access to almost everything that is tradable, including foreign exchanges.

[RapperT]

10 minutes ago, Djtux said:

Made some money on preferred shares, and corporate bonds on tesla in the past as well.

It's hard to beat IB for access to almost everything that is tradable, including foreign exchanges.

there were (and still are) some bargains in the corporate debt market right now.  Prices have reverted a bit with overall market but I bought a  bunch.  In some cases, and depending on personal goals, these positions can be preferable to long stock positions

 

@rasar looks like ToS ICE data is $110/month

[rasar]

6 minutes ago, RapperT said:

...

@rasar looks like ToS ICE data is $110/month

Chump change, I'm sure 😄😄

[rigulator]

Having the same problems with the absurd fees for ICE data I found Plus500.com really usefull. If you search the symbols (CT, CC, KC etc) by clicking on the magnifier glass up on the right you get real-time quotes for their CfD which represent the prices of the front contract. This is really helpfull for guessing the mid of the FOP for STEADY Futures! Not perfect but for free:-)

[RapperT]

59 minutes ago, rigulator said:

Having the same problems with the absurd fees for ICE data I found Plus500.com really usefull. If you search the symbols (CT, CC, KC etc) by clicking on the magnifier glass up on the right you get real-time quotes for their CfD which represent the prices of the front contract. This is really helpfull for guessing the mid of the FOP for STEADY Futures! Not perfect but for free:-)

this is a good tip, thanks.

 

If you dont subscribe to ICE data, I would recommend placing an order well below the most recent mid and walking it up.  This has worked for others who are trading the system

[rigulator]

27 minutes ago, RapperT said:

this is a good tip, thanks.

 

If you dont subscribe to ICE data, I would recommend placing an order well below the most recent mid and walking it up.  This has worked for others who are trading the system

The problem is that you never know how far the prices went in the past 15 min blind flight. By seeing the actual future price you can be sure that you don't place the order far beyond the offer believing that it's still mid-price. On the other hand I'm quite sure, that market maker software realizes orders stepping up in direktion to offer.  Therefore I often suspend the order for some minutes before stepping up further. I' ve got the impression, that this procedure offers better prices. But maybe it's just an illusion...

[Daniel S]

On 4/29/2020 at 3:44 PM, Kim said:

I did not do a comprehensive research, but it seems to me that as a package (combination of commissions, platform, execution, trading abilities etc.) IB still offers the best package overall. Their commissions are not the lowest, but I average around 0.70/contract. tastyworks is 0.50/contracts ($1 to open free to close), but they have other fees (I believe they charge for assignment and exercise) plus significantly higher margin rates. 

Two big drawdowns of IB: terrible customer service and draconian margin call treatment. 

I would add fees to the list of drawdowns. In the past 2 months I accumulated around 1,100 USD in commissions and fees on tastyworks. That is almost 50% of my profit. Until now I have not been aware on how huge of a drag commissions and fees are.

[MH74]

Hi all, I reside in Liechtenstein (Europe) and use TWD platform from Lynx. I'm currently paying USD 2.55 per contract, which is far too much. Could you please recommend me any good and less expensive broker? I know IB would be a good one. The problem with IB is that it's pretty complicated to open an account as an active Lynx client, due to the mutual partnership. That means, that I would have to cancel my account with Lynx, wait 6 months and after that I would be able to open an account with IB. Do you know brokers, preferably here in Europe with a price level of around USD 0.5 - 1.00 per contract? Thank you in advance

[CJ912]

20 minutes ago, MH74 said:

Hi all, I reside in Liechtenstein (Europe) and use TWD platform from Lynx. I'm currently paying USD 2.55 per contract, which is far too much. Could you please recommend me any good and less expensive broker? I know IB would be a good one. The problem with IB is that it's pretty complicated to open an account as an active Lynx client, due to the mutual partnership. That means, that I would have to cancel my account with Lynx, wait 6 months and after that I would be able to open an account with IB. Do you know brokers, preferably here in Europe with a price level of around USD 0.5 - 1.00 per contract? Thank you in advance

I hasd that same issue when I was with Lynx, then went with Tastyworks and later added Tradier. To the best of my knowledge there are no real low cost brokers in Europe that offer good options abilities.

[Marc Swiss]

1 hour ago, MH74 said:

Hi all, I reside in Liechtenstein (Europe) and use TWD platform from Lynx. I'm currently paying USD 2.55 per contract, which is far too much. Could you please recommend me any good and less expensive broker? I know IB would be a good one. The problem with IB is that it's pretty complicated to open an account as an active Lynx client, due to the mutual partnership. That means, that I would have to cancel my account with Lynx, wait 6 months and after that I would be able to open an account with IB. Do you know brokers, preferably here in Europe with a price level of around USD 0.5 - 1.00 per contract? Thank you in advance

I can definitely recommend tradier. I'm quite happy with my IB account as well which I mainly use for long stock positions. 

It's hard to beat tradier with their 10$ per month flat fee package when it comes to commissions.

It's impossible to beat IB in terms of availability of tradable products and stability of the trading platform.