Brokers and commissions

[stewbd00]

I was a beta tester of the iPhone app, and it's definitely usable for trading on the go. I've opened, closed and modified dozens of trades on it, and while it's good, it's definitely not as good as the IB TWS or the thinkorswim mobile app.  Just my 2 cents.

For those that remember the 'dough' app, the new tastyworks app isn't that much different than the 'dough' app that used to work with TDA before Sosnoff and TDA parted ways in January.  Opening/closing/modifying orders are all very similar between dough and the new tastyworks app.

[akito]

Tastyworks has also released an update for their android app (technically unreleased beta, but can be found on google play) today which fixes some crashes on the grid page. (not that I ever use that though) However, the new update has now broken the mechanism for closing positions. Previously, if you selected some legs and tapped "close", it would navigate to the trade page and prefill the settings to close the legs. All you had to do was choose a price and hit confirm. Now, it just goes to the trade page without prefilling out anything.

 

If anyone else is using the android Tastyworks app, I would highly recommend against updating until another update comes to fix this issue.

Edited October 4, 2017 by akito

[cuegis]

I have been with IB for 20+ years and they recently released a new mobile app, which I find to be excellent.

Since I have not compared it to any of the others, i don't know where it stands among the rest of them.

But, I finjd it to be great.

[sakura]

2 hours ago, cuegis said:

I have been with IB for 20+ years and they recently released a new mobile app, which I find to be excellent.

Since I have not compared it to any of the others, i don't know where it stands among the rest of them.

But, I finjd it to be great.

@cuegis, which new mobile app are you refering to? IB TWS 8.42? 

[cuegis]

It say's IB TWS 8.3.905.

You seem to have a newer version by the numbers.

Edited October 4, 2017 by cuegis

[cuegis]

I just updated it, and now it says 8.3.909 How did you get 8.42?

[sakura]

It's on an iPhone. The AppStore tells me the latest version of IB TWS is 8.42 and when I open the app and go to Configuration and to the bottom of the page it tells me "Interactive Brokers. You are using version 8.42.2065". Maybe you are using Android?

But never mind, I was just wondering if there had been any major release I had missed. 

Edited October 5, 2017 by sakura
typo

[akito]

19 hours ago, akito said:

Tastyworks has also released an update for their android app (technically unreleased beta, but can be found on google play) today which fixes some crashes on the grid page. (not that I ever use that though) However, the new update has now broken the mechanism for closing positions. Previously, if you selected some legs and tapped "close", it would navigate to the trade page and prefill the settings to close the legs. All you had to do was choose a price and hit confirm. Now, it just goes to the trade page without prefilling out anything.

 

If anyone else is using the android Tastyworks app, I would highly recommend against updating until another update comes to fix this issue.

FYI, tastyworks just released another update today that fixes the closing positions bug. Finally, it looks like the tastyworks team is focusing more of their efforts on the android app.

[cuegis]

6 hours ago, sakura said:

It's on an iPhone. The AppStore tells me the latest version of IB TWS is 8.42 and when I open the app and go to Configuration and to the bottom of the page it tells me "Interactive Brokers. You are using version 8.42.2065". Maybe you are using Android?

But never mind, I was just wondering if there had been any major release I had missed. 

Yes...I am using an android. Samsung Galaxy. I didn't know that it made a difference.

[cuegis]

I just wanted to let those who use IB,and may not update their platform regularly.

I received an email from them yesterday telling me that their latest build, of around Oct 10, has some new features. 

But, among the most significant, the have changed "IB Risk Manager" to separate out all VIX related products from your total position, so that they can be viewed separately.

You should upgrade to this new version.

I always upgrade about every 2-3 weeks to make sure that I am current.

[Paul]

Cuegis, do you not get automatice updates when you log in everyday?

[cuegis]

6 minutes ago, Paul said:

Cuegis, do you not get automatice updates when you log in everyday?

Honestly...I don't even know.

I have been with them for 20+years and I don't know.

I know that TOS (which I don't use) updates everytime you login.

Do you know how I can check the settings to make sure I get auto updates?

Because I know that I am not getting them.

I assume it is under "settings" somewhere"?

[anand331]

I downloaded the "Latest TWS" script from IB webpage. It automatically checks and updates every time you start up TWS.

[cuegis]

8 minutes ago, anand331 said:

I downloaded the "Latest TWS" script from IB webpage. It automatically checks and updates every time you start up TWS.

I go to their site, then go to "Trading", "TWS Platform", Then choose download "offline" latest version.

Are you doing something different, or going to a different part of their site?

[anand331]

5 minutes ago, cuegis said:

I go to their site, then go to "Trading", "TWS Platform", Then choose download "offline" latest version.

Are you doing something different, or going to a different part of their site?

@cuegis the standalone version does not auto-upgrade. So just google "TWS latest download" and download that script. It auto-upgrades everytime you run TWS.

[craigsmith]

8 minutes ago, cuegis said:

I go to their site, then go to "Trading", "TWS Platform", Then choose download "offline" latest version.

Are you doing something different, or going to a different part of their site?

 

Offline TWS

The offline installer contains everything needed to install and run the selected TWS version. The Offline installation will not update automatically. If a new version of TWS is published, you will need to manually download and install the Offline program again. If you prefer to have TWS auto-update, install one of the updating versions above.

 

[cuegis]

6 minutes ago, craigsmith said:

 

Offline TWS

The offline installer contains everything needed to install and run the selected TWS version. The Offline installation will not update automatically. If a new version of TWS is published, you will need to manually download and install the Offline program again. If you prefer to have TWS auto-update, install one of the updating versions above.

 

This is what has been causing my problem. I have always upgraded using the "Offline" choice.

At some point, one of their tech guys walked me through this,and told me to do it this way. He implied that you were getting a different (better?) version by going this route.

But, he neglected to tell me that I will no longer receive "auto-updates"

[Djtux]

6 minutes ago, krisbee said:

SMART. That's what it shows in my tool. What is SMART MaxRebate? may be u can explain it in different thread.

 

I believe you need to 'enable' the Smart MaxRebate or Smart PreferRebate to be able to select it.

I believe that it only works for single leg options.

I haven't found how to do that for a multi-leg option.

[4REAL]

20 minutes ago, Djtux said:

I believe you need to 'enable' the Smart MaxRebate or Smart PreferRebate to be able to select it.

I believe that it only works for single leg options.

I haven't found how to do that for a multi-leg option.

@Djtux In TW    > Edit tab > global configuration > orders > smart routing , in the smart routing screen you can select your preference (ranging from Maximize Rebate to Maximize Fill)

Edited October 27, 2017 by 4REAL

[Djtux]

4 minutes ago, 4REAL said:

@Djtux In TW    > Edit tab > global configuration > orders > smart routing , in the smart routing screen you can select your preference

Yes i'm already using that but it only works for single leg orders not multi legs.

Are you able to make it work (Smart MaxRebate) for multi-leg option orders ?

 

 

On 9/13/2017 at 3:27 PM, Djtux said:

For single option like a call, there is the routing option https://www.interactivebrokers.com/en/software/tws/usersguidebook/configuretws/configure_smartrouting.htm to try to get more rebate.

 

Edited October 27, 2017 by Djtux

[4REAL]

1 minute ago, Djtux said:

Yes i'm already using that but it only works for single leg orders not multi legs.

Are you able to make it work (Smart MaxRebate) for multi-leg option orders ?

I have Maximize Fill but I assume that there is no distinction between single and multi leg 

[IgorK]

On 2017-10-27 at 3:41 PM, 4REAL said:

@Djtux In TW    > Edit tab > global configuration > orders > smart routing , in the smart routing screen you can select your preference (ranging from Maximize Rebate to Maximize Fill)

 

On 2017-10-27 at 3:45 PM, Djtux said:

Yes i'm already using that but it only works for single leg orders not multi legs.

Are you able to make it work (Smart MaxRebate) for multi-leg option orders ?

 

 

 

Are not Max Fill and Max rebate mutually exclusive? How it actually works?

[ETFoption]

Hello, new here. Read the posts. Anyone care to update regards to commission, seems  to be a big factor in smallish accounts ? Will IB just suffice, anyone have the delta on IB vs. Tradier ? Thanks

 

Also  a working  phone application means a lot to me, not looking to save 500.00 annually in commission only to miss some trades etc thnx

Edited December 8, 2017 by ETFoption
left out details

[IgorK]

34 minutes ago, ETFoption said:

Hello, new here. Read the posts. Anyone care to update regards to commission, seems  to be a big factor in smallish accounts ? Will IB just suffice, anyone have the delta on IB vs. Tradier ? Thanks

 

Also  a working  phone application means a lot to me, not looking to save 500.00 annually in commission only to miss some trades etc thnx

I am with IB and happy so far.  Commissions are good most of the time. Sometimes jump out. But it also depends on exchange. I am not doing a lot of trades, but here some people getting even commission returns on trades.

I like their mobile app.  Flexible enough. Was able to track and manage position even when on vacation

[ETFoption]

33 minutes ago, IgorK said:

I am with IB and happy so far.  Commissions are good most of the time. Sometimes jump out. But it also depends on exchange. I am not doing a lot of trades, but here some people getting even commission returns on trades.

I like their mobile app.  Flexible enough. Was able to track and manage position even when on vacation

Thank you

 

Are you saying ROI is breakeven over say six months with a 20k account given fee's at IB inclusive of commiss ? Thnx

[cuegis]

2 hours ago, ETFoption said:

Hello, new here. Read the posts. Anyone care to update regards to commission, seems  to be a big factor in smallish accounts ? Will IB just suffice, anyone have the delta on IB vs. Tradier ? Thanks

 

Also  a working  phone application means a lot to me, not looking to save 500.00 annually in commission only to miss some trades etc thnx

I have been with IB since they first opened around 20 years ago.

I guess the fact that I have not moved in all this time speaks to how I feel about them.

It is very rare that I need to call them for any kind of help , after all this time but, over the past week, I have had to call them, for a variety of reasons, and the response time was usually 1 minute, including one time when the rep spent nearly 45 minutes, very friendly and helpful with me.

So, that is my opinion.

Other people may need customer service as a priority. While others it's only about commission.

If you only care about commission, and not great trading platform, and analytics etc., then there are 1, maybe 2 places that might be slightly cheaper.

But, you will be working in a "cheaper" environment. Nothing comes for free.

[ETFoption]

2 minutes ago, cuegis said:

I have been with IB since they first opened around 20 years ago.

I guess the fact that I have not moved in all this time speaks to how I feel about them.

It is very rare that I need to call them for any kind of help , after all this time but, over the past week, I have had to call them, for a variety of reasons, and the response time was usually 1 minute, including one time when the rep spent nearly 45 minutes, very friendly and helpful with me.

So, that is my opinion.

Other people may need customer service as a priority. While others it's only about commission.

If you only care about commission, and not great trading platform, and analytics etc., then there are 1, maybe 2 places that might be slightly cheaper.

But, you will  working in a "cheaper" environment. Nothing comes for free.

About sums it up !

 

Thanks

[IgorK]

1 hour ago, ETFoption said:

Thank you

 

Are you saying ROI is breakeven over say six months with a 20k account given fee's at IB inclusive of commiss ? Thnx

I have smaller 10K account for about 4 month. By far not very experienced trader. Just learning. ROI on what? 

[ETFoption]

ROI return on investment or even  ROM return on margin. concern is smallish account after paying subscription "fee' plus commission and slippage where are you in terms of returns thank you

[IgorK]

1 minute ago, ETFoption said:

ROI return on investment or even  ROM return on margin. concern is smallish account after paying subscription "fee' plus commission and slippage where are you in terms of returns thank you

With IB if you do enough trades (commission wise) fees are waived.

[Kim]

1 minute ago, ETFoption said:

ROI return on investment or even  ROM return on margin. concern is smallish account after paying subscription "fee' plus commission and slippage where are you in terms of returns thank you

Most of our members consider the subscription fee as tuition, not part of returns. Personal performance is a private matter, I don't think it's appropriate to discuss it on a public forum.

[cuegis]

16 minutes ago, ETFoption said:

ROI return on investment or even  ROM return on margin. concern is smallish account after paying subscription "fee' plus commission and slippage where are you in terms of returns thank you

Returns are based of the "nature" of the strategies you use.

It is best to be diversified among strategies.

For example, delta neutral, short premium, strategies, will give lower returns (in the 20%- 40% range), but they will do that more often, with less risk.

Directional/gamma trades will give you $200%+++ returns,sometimes in 1-2 days, much less of the time, but if you are very careful with your stop losses, there will not be much more, if any risk.

Given the nature of these 2 approaches, it would be prudent to allocate MUCH less capital to the latter, and much more to the former. It will all add up in the end, if you have a plan, and know what you are doing.,

Day trading has gotten a bad rap but, if you have a clear plan, and are religious about preservation of capital, it is not uncommon for example, to buy an option for $2.00, and sell it the same, or next, day for $4.00 (100% return in 1 day).

But that is the nature of "that" approach  and much less capital should be allocated to it.

Most important of all, you will have periods where you make way more money than you ever expected. This is the most dangerous time , because it gives a false sense of power to the trader, and could lead him to start changing either his rules, or his size of allocation.

"why sit for 4 weeks, to make ,30 cents when I can make 100% in 1 day?"

Do NOT go down that road!

Edited December 8, 2017 by cuegis

[ETFoption]

19 minutes ago, Kim said:

Most of our members consider the subscription fee as tuition, not part of returns. Personal performance is a private matter, I don't think it's appropriate to discuss it on a public forum.

Understand, not looking for anyone particular returns, just doing a feasibility study with fee's in total. thnx

[cuegis]

Yes, it is true, with IB, if you generate  (i forgot, but there is not much difference anyway) $30 in commissions, ir, 30 trades, in a calendar month, they will wave the some of the subscription fees. The main ones.

If you are just trading basic equity, and etf 's and their options, then that fee will be waived.

On the other hand, whether you are professional, or non, if you subscribe to coffee, sugar, cocoa,futures and futures options, the monthly fee is $120.00

That will never be waived.

Edited December 8, 2017 by cuegis

[ETFoption]

47 minutes ago, cuegis said:

Returns are based of the "nature" of the strategies you use.

It is best to be diversified among strategies.

For example, delta neutral, short premium, strategies, will give lower returns (in the 20%- 40% range), but they will do that more often, with less risk.

Directional/gamma trades will give you $200%+++ returns,sometimes in 1-2 days, much less of the time, but if you are very careful with your stop losses, there will not be much more, if any risk.

Given the nature of these 2 approaches, it would be prudent to allocate MUCH less capital to the latter, and much more to the former. It will all add up in the end, if you have a plan, and know what you are doing.,

Day trading has gotten a bad rap but, if you have a clear plan, and are religious about preservation of capital, it is not uncommon for example, to buy an option for $2.00, and sell it the same, or next, day for $4.00 (100% return in 1 day).

But that is the nature of "that" approach  and much less capital should be allocated to it.

Most important of all, you will have periods where you make way more money than you ever expected. This is the most dangerous time , because it gives a false sense of power to the trader, and could lead him to start changing either his rules, or his size of allocation.

"why sit for 4 weeks, to make ,30 cents when I can make 100% in 1 day?"

Do NOT go down that road!

Thanks, basically looking for people to say I use IB or xyz broker my fees are "xx" percent of returns or some indication to gt a handle on real world performance for "members" since its possible not all members take each trade and further different fills going into a trade and getting out regardless of profil or a losing trade. thank you

[greenspan76]

2 hours ago, ETFoption said:

Thanks, basically looking for people to say I use IB or xyz broker my fees are "xx" percent of returns or some indication to gt a handle on real world performance for "members" since its possible not all members take each trade and further different fills going into a trade and getting out regardless of profil or a losing trade. thank you

Not a perfect analysis, because I have some other trades mixed in (~95% option trades in this account), but maybe it will give you a general idea. So far this year through November, my commissions at IB have comprised 35% of my pre-commission gains. But I'm not sure that's a useful number by itself. A better number might be this: commissions have comprised about 1.6% (edited from 0.7%) of Reg-T margin requirement on the trades I've made.

Edited December 8, 2017 by greenspan76
Corrected error in commission %

[ETFoption]

35 minutes ago, greenspan76 said:

Not a perfect analysis, because I have some other trades mixed in (~95% option trades in this account), but maybe it will give you a general idea. So far this year through November, my commissions at IB have comprised 35% of my pre-commission gains. But I'm not sure that's a useful number by itself. A better number might be this: commissions have comprised about 0.7% of Reg-T margin requirement on the trades I've made.

Thanks, maybe someone will  also comment.  I think the REG T margin .7 percent maybe most useful , seems very good and low, lets assume you follow SO and your account performs within  a few percentage points of the community, one can assume another 1.0 percent is spent on commission ( leave out the subscription fees and data for now) thanks very much

[greenspan76]

1 hour ago, ETFoption said:

Thanks, maybe someone will  also comment.  I think the REG T margin .7 percent maybe most useful , seems very good and low, lets assume you follow SO and your account performs within  a few percentage points of the community, one can assume another 1.0 percent is spent on commission ( leave out the subscription fees and data for now) thanks very much

Sorry for misleading earlier, but after looking a little closer, I noticed there were more non-SO trades in this account the first half of the year than I realized. That skewed the numbers a bit, so I isolated only SO-related trades from July 1st to today. For those trades, my commissions were 1.6% of require margin (Reg-T).

[ETFoption]

53 minutes ago, greenspan76 said:

Sorry for misleading earlier, but after looking a little closer, I noticed there were more non-SO trades in this account the first half of the year than I realized. That skewed the numbers a bit, so I isolated only SO-related trades from July 1st to today. For those trades, my commissions were 1.6% of require margin (Reg-T).

Thanks really do appreciate it, gives a data point,,, not terribly high cost I dont think ?

[akito]

Interesting. Robinhood just today announced that they will be offering free option trading next year.

http://blog.robinhood.com/news/2017/12/12/introducing-options-trading

 

-no commissions and no exercise/assignment fees (probably still passing down the other fees though, clearing, orf, etc)

-support for level 2 and level 3 option strategies (should work for the majority of SO trades)

-free real time data

 

They're also slowly releasing a web/desktop version of their platform so by the time options are available, the web/desktop version should be available as well. Not exactly clear what the entire user interface will look like at the moment though. (Probably can't be any more spartan than Tradier's web interface) I think Robinhood uses Apex clearing (which Tradier also uses) for stocks, which means they'll probably use them for options as well.

 

Anyways, could be something worth looking into when it's available.

Edited December 13, 2017 by akito

[cuegis]

Do they offer this for commodities,and futures options as well.

 

 

[akito]

14 minutes ago, cuegis said:

Do they offer this for commodities,and futures options as well.

They don't support futures or commodities at the moment, so I doubt they'll support options on them.

[cuegis]

1 minute ago, akito said:

They don't support futures or commodities at the moment, so I doubt they'll support options on them.

That is a darn shame!

[Noah Katz]

1 hour ago, akito said:

Interesting. Robinhood just today announced that they will be offering free option trading next year.

http://blog.robinhood.com/news/2017/12/12/introducing-options-trading

 

Sounds too good to be true.

 

What could there business model be?

[apsoccermd]

5 minutes ago, Noah Katz said:

 

Sounds too good to be true.

 

What could there business model be?

They have API trading coming.. My guess is that they will try to do what tradier is doing.. Sell other trading platform integrations for more serious investors.. 

[akito]

18 minutes ago, Noah Katz said:

Sounds too good to be true.

What could there business model be?

https://support.robinhood.com/hc/en-us/articles/202853769-How-Robinhood-Makes-Money

-interest on cash

-monthly subscription fees for optional additional features (unknown what optional features there will be for options at the moment)

Edited December 13, 2017 by akito

[Noah Katz]

OK; then I guess it depends on what the additional cost for a decent is.

[Djtux]

2 hours ago, akito said:

Interesting. Robinhood just today announced that they will be offering free option trading next year.

http://blog.robinhood.com/news/2017/12/12/introducing-options-trading

 

-no commissions and no exercise/assignment fees (probably still passing down the other fees though, clearing, orf, etc)

-support for level 2 and level 3 option strategies (should work for the majority of SO trades)

-free real time data

 

They're also slowly releasing a web/desktop version of their platform so by the time options are available, the web/desktop version should be available as well. Not exactly clear what the entire user interface will look like at the moment though. (Probably can't be any more spartan than Tradier's web interface) I think Robinhood uses Apex clearing (which Tradier also uses) for stocks, which means they'll probably use them for options as well.

 

Anyways, could be something worth looking into when it's available.

Saw that as well and i'm on the waitlist for both the options and web platform as i'm already using Robinhood for my 'fun' account.

[SBatch]

36 minutes ago, Noah Katz said:

 

Sounds too good to be true.

 

What could there business model be?

 

29 minutes ago, akito said:

https://support.robinhood.com/hc/en-us/articles/202853769-How-Robinhood-Makes-Money

-interest on cash

-monthly subscription fees for optional additional features (unknown what optional features there will be for options at the moment)

Business model is the same as Tradier, the largest revenue comes from the rebate for order flow.  All US brokers receive this but do their best to hide it.  Those that outsource the front end platform technology can have an extremely lucrative model without charging commissions.

[Noah Katz]

 

[oops, should be "their" business model]

 

That's the first I've heard of order flow rebate; where are those $ coming from?