Brokers and commissions

[SBatch]

3 minutes ago, sakura said:

sorry @SBatch, I misunderstood and replied too fast. Did not mean to be rude, as I now realize it was. Sorry again. 

No problem at all.

[luxmon]

Bear in mind as I think this was already mentioned earlier in this thread, even though they state the commissions are only the flat fee, you will pay regulatory fees of about 0.09 to 0.11 per contract.  For example, on a 20-lot calendar spread I traded yesterday on an equity, according to the trade confirmation statement I paid 3.86 in these fees on the 40 contracts transaction.  You may or may not already be paying with these extra fees with your broker, and usually need to check the trade confirmation statements to see them as they don't always show up in the trading platform.

Also, they are not margin friendly when it comes to unbalanced flies.  As soon as you break a fly/condor or make the wings unbalanced, the margin relief for the credit spread side goes away (at least the last time I traded one, sometime earlier this year).

And yes, no calendar spreads on cash-settled options.

Just some surprises I've noticed.

Tim

 

[SBatch]

18 minutes ago, luxmon said:

Bear in mind as I think this was already mentioned earlier in this thread, even though they state the commissions are only the flat fee, you will pay regulatory fees of about 0.09 to 0.11 per contract.  For example, on a 20-lot calendar spread I traded yesterday on an equity, according to the trade confirmation statement I paid 3.86 in these fees on the 40 contracts transaction.  You may or may not already be paying with these extra fees with your broker, and usually need to check the trade confirmation statements to see them as they don't always show up in the trading platform.

Also, they are not margin friendly when it comes to unbalanced flies.  As soon as you break a fly/condor or make the wings unbalanced, the margin relief for the credit spread side goes away (at least the last time I traded one, sometime earlier this year).

And yes, no calendar spreads on cash-settled options.

Just some surprises I've noticed.

Tim

 

Good info.  The ORF is .0465 per contract and the OCC clearing fee is .05, so that makes sense.  Still a massive savings for everyone as most seem to pay between .50 and 1.00 per contract.  I've had the same issue with OX regarding unbalanced flies, however a call to the margin department does result in margin relief.  Have you tried contacting the trade desk regarding this?  Also, what has been your experience with execution?  Thanks.

[luxmon]

3 hours ago, SBatch said:

Good info.  The ORF is .0465 per contract and the OCC clearing fee is .05, so that makes sense.  Still a massive savings for everyone as most seem to pay between .50 and 1.00 per contract.  I've had the same issue with OX regarding unbalanced flies, however a call to the margin department does result in margin relief.  Have you tried contacting the trade desk regarding this?  Also, what has been your experience with execution?  Thanks.

I just point out those fees as some brokers eat the OCC fee themselves (in fact, Tradier did until a few months ago) so one can do a correct head to head cost comparison.  I have contacted Tradier's trade desk (more often than I care to admit) and that's how I originally discovered the unfriendly margin treatment as the culprit for the large amount of missing buying power.  They claimed the margin requirement was being imposed by their clearing firm, and they offered to restore the missing buying power for the day within their backend system.  However, they claimed I needed to call them every morning thereafter as long as that position was on to have the buying power restored.  Additionally, they did warn me that if my trading exceeded the buying power beyond what the clearing firm required, I would receive a margin call the next morning.  I decided at that point not to do those types of trades there.  As far a execution, I have not noticed any differences with other major brokerage accounts I have, although I did run into some strange incidents recently of having the exact same order stall at TOS but be filled at Tradier.  I didn't follow up on this any further and don't have any hard data to prove Tradier is better.

I hope this helps.

Tim

[Vijay]

1 minute ago, luxmon said:

I just point out those fees as some brokers eat the OCC fee themselves (in fact, Tradier did until a few months ago) so one can do a correct head to head cost comparison.  I have contacted Tradier's trade desk (more often than I care to admit) and that's how I originally discovered the unfriendly margin treatment as the culprit for the large amount of missing buying power.  They claimed the margin requirement was being imposed by their clearing firm, and they offered to restore the missing buying power for the day within their backend system.  However, they claimed I needed to call them every morning thereafter as long as that position was on to have the buying power restored.  Additionally, they did warn me that if my trading exceeded the buying power beyond what the clearing firm required, I would receive a margin call the next morning.  I decided at that point not to do those types of trades there.  As far a execution, I have not noticed any differences with other major brokerage accounts I have, although I did run into some strange incidents recently of having the exact same order stall at TOS but be filled at Tradier.  I didn't follow up on this any further and don't have any hard data to prove Tradier is better.

I hope this helps.

Tim

Quick question. On Tradier is the treatement of pre-earnings calendar spreads on stocks the same as IB and TOS?

 

[SBatch]

14 minutes ago, luxmon said:

I just point out those fees as some brokers eat the OCC fee themselves (in fact, Tradier did until a few months ago) so one can do a correct head to head cost comparison.  I have contacted Tradier's trade desk (more often than I care to admit) and that's how I originally discovered the unfriendly margin treatment as the culprit for the large amount of missing buying power.  They claimed the margin requirement was being imposed by their clearing firm, and they offered to restore the missing buying power for the day within their backend system.  However, they claimed I needed to call them every morning thereafter as long as that position was on to have the buying power restored.  Additionally, they did warn me that if my trading exceeded the buying power beyond what the clearing firm required, I would receive a margin call the next morning.  I decided at that point not to do those types of trades there.  As far a execution, I have not noticed any differences with other major brokerage accounts I have, although I did run into some strange incidents recently of having the exact same order stall at TOS but be filled at Tradier.  I didn't follow up on this any further and don't have any hard data to prove Tradier is better.

I hope this helps.

Tim

Thanks for the info.  The issue with TOS doesn't surprise me.  They don't smart route, but rather funnel heavy order load to the exchange where they get the largest incentive. Therefore, they often have inferior execution as their orders only sit at one exchange (similar to eTrade and eOption).

[Noah Katz]

49 minutes ago, SBatch said:

They don't smart route, but rather funnel heavy order load to the exchange where they get the largest incentive. Therefore, they often have inferior execution as their orders only sit at one exchange (similar to eTrade and eOption).

 

 

So that's my problem.

 

I decided to stay at eTrade after negotiating really low options fees at eTrade by telling them I would go to Tradier, but I bad fills; if I don't chase, my GTC orders often never get filled.

 

Besides inertia, another factor that concerned me was the safety of my life's savings at a smaller less-established player vis-a-vis eTrade.

 

Is there any reason to think I'd be worse off with my money at Tradier if the unthinkable happens (like sovereign debt bomb explodes and world financial system collapses)?

 

Edited May 4, 2017 by Noah Katz

[SBatch]

59 minutes ago, Noah Katz said:

 

 

So that's my problem.

 

I decided to stay at eTrade after negotiating really low options fees at eTrade by telling them I would go to Tradier, but I bad fills; if I don't chase, my GTC orders often never get filled.

 

Besides inertia, another factor that concerned me was the safety of my life's savings at a smaller less-established player vis-a-vis eTrade.

 

Is there any reason to think I'd be worse off with my money at Tradier if the unthinkable happens (like sovereign debt bomb explodes and world financial system collapses)?

 

Regardless of which broker you use, you're still protected by SIPC. This gives you $500,000 total protection for securities and cash combined (with a maximum of $250,000 for the cash portion).

Edited May 4, 2017 by SBatch

[Noah Katz]

 

Good to know, thanks.

 

Is that total assets, or per account?

[SBatch]

 

25 minutes ago, Noah Katz said:

 

Good to know, thanks.

 

Is that total assets, or per account?

Total assets held in the same capacity.  For example, all individual accounts would be aggregated and held to the $500,000.  However, if you also held a joint account that would be considered a separate capacity and would quality for an additional $500,000.

Edited May 4, 2017 by SBatch

[Noah Katz]

 

Not sure what capacity means.

 

I have a regular IRA, Roth IRA, and a cash account; are they each protected, or just in aggregate?

[SBatch]

5 minutes ago, Noah Katz said:

 

Not sure what capacity means.

 

I have a regular IRA, Roth IRA, and a cash account; are they each protected, or just in aggregate?

Yes, those are all held in separate capacity and would all qualify for the $500,000 each.

[Noah Katz]

 

Great, thanks very much, and for your other great postings as well.

 

Looking forward to seeing how your Tradier trading goes.

 

Edited May 4, 2017 by Noah Katz

[cuegis]

I just found this platform that is backed by Tradier Brokerage.

It say's something like "try us for 1 month for $10"

I have not been able to get my hands on their analysis and backtesting software but, it looks like it might be interesting.

Also, a way of getting some great analysis tools while using it to trade through Tradier.

I have not looked into it fully yet but.....here it is......

http://www.key2options.com/

[ChadK]

$200/month thereafter.  Ouch.

[CRB]

How does one get this rate trader ?

[SBatch]

41 minutes ago, CRB said:

How does one get this rate trader ?

http://try.tradier.com/steady-o-013/

 

[CRB]

Thank You

[Noah Katz]

 

SBatch,

 

I emailed etrade about their options order routing and got this reply:

 

"...Quarterly 606 Report"... will show you exactly where we route specific orders in order to give you the best available execution at the time of order entry. You may also utilize the following link to read more about order routing:

https://content.etrade.com/etrade/powerpage/pdf/OrderRouting11AC6.pdf"

Specifically, the report mentions on page 5 that "E*TRADE routes orders in exchange-listed options to broker-dealer intermediaries, which in turn use smart order routing technology to seek the best execution available in the market."

 

So they say they smart-route, or does it all depend on who the broker-dealer intermediaries are?

 

Edited May 4, 2017 by Noah Katz

[cuegis]

5 hours ago, SBatch said:

http://try.tradier.com/steady-o-013/

 

This is how you get a special deal by going through SO from what I understand.

All of the benefits will be in the form of commissions, which is a big deal.

But, from what I can see, if you enter through these people.....http://www.key2options.com/

then you might be able to have access to some pretty serious research tools, and the commissions might still be similar.

But , if you mention SO, maybe you can work a deal where you get the best of both worlds (commissions + research tools)

[SBatch]

21 minutes ago, Noah Katz said:

 

SBatch,

 

I emailed etrade about their options order routing and got this reply:

 

"...Quarterly 606 Report"... will show you exactly where we route specific orders in order to give you the best available execution at the time of order entry. You may also utilize the following link to read more about order routing:

https://content.etrade.com/etrade/powerpage/pdf/OrderRouting11AC6.pdf"

Specifically, the report mentions on page 5 that "E*TRADE routes orders in exchange-listed options to broker-dealer intermediaries, which in turn use smart order routing technology to seek the best execution available in the market."

 

So they say they smart-route, or does it all depend on who the broker-dealer intermediaries are?

 

Looks like they changed their policy, no doubt in reaction to this:

https://www.law360.com/articles/652831/e-trade-gets-finra-wells-notice-over-order-routing-tactics

http://www.finra.org/newsroom/2016/finra-fines-etrade-900k-best-execution-and-protection-customer-order-information

Based on these changes, yes their intermediaries would smart route.

[SBatch]

18 minutes ago, cuegis said:

This is how you get a special deal by going through SO from what I understand.

All of the benefits will be in the form of commissions, which is a big deal.

But, from what I can see, if you enter through these people.....http://www.key2options.com/

then you might be able to have access to some pretty serious research tools, and the commissions might still be similar.

But , if you mention SO, maybe you can work a deal where you get the best of both worlds (commissions + research tools)

Yes, I was providing the link to a member that had asked for it.

[Noah Katz]

17 minutes ago, SBatch said:

Looks like they changed their policy, no doubt in reaction to this:

https://www.law360.com/articles/652831/e-trade-gets-finra-wells-notice-over-order-routing-tactics

http://www.finra.org/newsroom/2016/finra-fines-etrade-900k-best-execution-and-protection-customer-order-information

Based on these changes, yes their intermediaries would smart route.

 

Very interesting, thanks!

[xsgex]

Those of you that use OptionsHouse, what is your experience? I see some negative reviews in this thread, but they're 5 years old and OH has changed a lot since then.

What is your take on OH becoming part of Etrade?

For what it's worth, I've been using OH for 6 months and I prefer their interface over ToS, which in my opinion is just all over the place. I especially love their tradeLAB feature:

Example tradeLAB screen for the recent RUT broken wing condor.

As far a commissions, I get 0.50 per leg + $4.50 per ticket.

I get a fairly quick fill most of the time, at least not slower than ToS.

[SBatch]

6 minutes ago, xsgex said:

Those of you that use OptionsHouse, what is your experience? I see some negative reviews in this thread, but they're 5 years old and OH has changed a lot since then.

What is your take on OH becoming part of Etrade?

For what it's worth, I've been using OH for 6 months and I prefer their interface over ToS, which in my opinion is just all over the place. I especially love their tradeLAB feature:

Example tradeLAB screen for the recent RUT broken wing condor.

As far a commissions, I get 0.50 per leg + $4.50 per ticket.

I get a fairly quick fill most of the time, at least not slower than ToS.

I think OptionsHouse has the best platform of all the brokers.  It is actually the TradeMonster software as OptionsHouse purchased TradeMonster a few years ago before being acquired by eTrade.  I don't think the eTrade aquisition will hurt as the objective was to gain an existing player in the option trading market (similar to Schwab with OptionsXpress).

[RapperT]

optionhouse doesnt permit time spreads on the indices...i still have an ira with them but use LiveVolx (with IB) for trading

[daybrozio]

I have been trading options with OptionsXpress for quite a long time now. I find their platform quite good but I'm not so sure how their commissions compare with those being mentioned in this thread. It seems there are much better commission rates available from other brokers. Would appreciate feedback from those of you who are with OX or were with OX and decided to leave them for another broker. 

[RapperT]

suddenly ONE wont pull price data from IB for me and Im having trouble pulling quotes on any futures.  Can you screenshot your current subscriptions @Kim?

[RapperT]

might be an option net explorer issue...some symbols I get an error message telling me to update my subscription on IB...others it will pull full price data

[4tach]

1 hour ago, RapperT said:

suddenly ONE wont pull price data from IB for me and Im having trouble pulling quotes on any futures.  Can you screenshot your current subscriptions @Kim?

@RapperT    I am a new trial subscriber to ONE and I use IB. Are you able to get any IB data feed after the 4pm close? The little green dot on the lower right of the main screen is grayed out and the option chains doe not fill in. Is this your experience? I understand that ONE provides "historical" data but not for the current day after circa 4pm. Is this your understanding?  Also do you know how to limit the data lines pulled from IB ?  I get a pop-up notice saying I have exceeded the 100 line limit but I just ignore it and data keeps coming in.

[bam1960]

30 minutes ago, 4tach said:

@RapperT    I am a new trial subscriber to ONE and I use IB. Are you able to get any IB data feed after the 4pm close? The little green dot on the lower right of the main screen is grayed out and the option chains doe not fill in. Is this your experience? I understand that ONE provides "historical" data but not for the current day after circa 4pm. Is this your understanding?  Also do you know how to limit the data lines pulled from IB ?  I get a pop-up notice saying I have exceeded the 100 line limit but I just ignore it and data keeps coming in.

Close some of indices that are not necessary will take care of line limits 

futures are only thing live after 4pm

[RapperT]

i wont get any data at all with certain underlyings...just get an error message

 

but yes, typically just OED data after 4pm.  I havent checked but i believe its from current day

Edited May 19, 2017 by RapperT

[Noah Katz]

@SBatch,

 

Have you tried Tradier yet, and if so what do you think?

[SBatch]

4 minutes ago, Noah Katz said:

@SBatch,

 

Have you tried Tradier yet, and if so what do you think?

Not yet, waiting until July 1st for tracking purposes.

[Noah Katz]

 

Makes sense, thanks

[CRB]

I have just opened accounts with Tradier and they have asked me to email them the Steady option agreements so that they can adjust my commissions. What agreements are they are they asking for ?

[Kim]

Probably your PayPal subscription. Did you use the link from our website to open the account?

[CRB]

No I just told them that I was with Steady Options.

[SBatch]

I began trading in my Tradier account today.  So far so good - filled both my SVXY trade and the RUT Steady Condors trade at better than the mid.  Their user interface/trade ticket is very basic but also extremely easy to use.  It's really just a matter of building a custom order for each trade which is simplistic.  I will continue to use OptionsXpress for my research and analysis and just use the Tradier online platform to place the trades.  In the future I will probably begin using the Option Dynamics platform by Dynamic Trend.  It has some incredible features that I have not seen elsewhere and I did verify that it works seamlessly with Tradier so once launched there is no need to access the Tradier website.

[Kim]

Thanks for sharing.

What SVXY trade did you do?

[SBatch]

3 minutes ago, Kim said:

Thanks for sharing.

What SVXY trade did you do?

I put it in the SVXY thread when I executed it:

 

[Noah Katz]

@SBatch,

Good to hear, thanks.

Do you know if Tradier allows short strangles?

Etrade doesn't let me do the short part.

[ChadK]

7 minutes ago, Noah Katz said:

Do you know if Tradier allows short strangles?

 

Sure:

https://brokerage.tradier.com/support

 

Do any levels of options trading require a minimum account value?

Yes, to write uncovered puts, there is a $25,000 minimum. To write uncovered calls, there is a $100,000 minimum.

 

[Noah Katz]

great, thanks, Chad

[Noah Katz]

On 6/29/2017 at 0:08 PM, SBatch said:

In the future I will probably begin using the Option Dynamics platform by Dynamic Trend.  It has some incredible features that I have not seen elsewhere and I did verify that it works seamlessly with Tradier so once launched there is no need to access the Tradier website.

 

The closest thing I see at the Tradier site is Dynamic Trend with Elliott Wave Turning Points; is that it?

 

[SBatch]

Just now, Noah Katz said:

 

The closest thing I see at the Tradier site is Dynamic Trend with Elliott Wave Turning Points; is that it?

 

It is, but I learned that it cannot be utilized with the $0 commission offer.  Therefore, I am trying the 30 day free trial with TradeHawk.  It is $297 per month with the unlimited $0 commission trades.  Also, in this case one does not also have to pay the $40 SO fee.  I actually have a demo scheduled for today.

[Noah Katz]

On 6/29/2017 at 0:08 PM, SBatch said:

In the future I will probably begin using the Option Dynamics platform by Dynamic Trend.  It has some incredible features that I have not seen elsewhere and I did verify that it works seamlessly with Tradier so once launched there is no need to access the Tradier website.

 

Good to know, thanks

 

 

[SBatch]

Here is a quick update on Tradier while using the TradeHawk platform.  Tradier execution continues to be as good as OptionsXpress was for me (and they have very good execution).  The TradeHawk platform is very good.  There are some things that need tweaking but they are ridiculously responsive (see email below).  I will mention that you do need to have a large monitor (or multiples which is a compatible configuration) to work with this platform.  All windows are found on the main "Command Center" page, rather than multiple pages or tabs.  This takes up a lot of screen real estate.  They can all be detached or maximized, but there are times where you will want to work with multiple windows simultaneously which is most easily done from the Command Center.  I will continue to make suggestions to the developer to improve the platform and as mentioned above here is an example of that thus far:

Hi Scott,

Looks like many of your suggested changes have been added to version 1.0.12.  I'm messing around with them now.  

 

1. For Cost basis of position, there is a button up top of the Risk Portfolio that allows a toggle between cost per contract/share and total position cost.  Also, a current VALUE column has been added.

2. If you choose a confirmation box before a trade, when you go to modify an order from the Order page, a box will appear confirming your changes.

3.  Mid point for spreads not there yet...give us a bit on that one.

4. For stock traders, auto exit order is available now.

 

Let me of any questions.

 

Thanks,

 

Lex

 

  Kevin "Lex" Luthringshausen

  OptionEyes, LLC

  lex@optioneyes.com

  M: 312.343.5273

 

[Sirion]

On 7/11/2017 at 10:19 AM, SBatch said:

Here is a quick update on Tradier while using the TradeHawk platform.  Tradier execution continues to be as good as OptionsXpress was for me (and they have very good execution).  The TradeHawk platform is very good.  There are some things that need tweaking but they are ridiculously responsive (see email below).  I will mention that you do need to have a large monitor (or multiples which is a compatible configuration) to work with this platform.  All windows are found on the main "Command Center" page, rather than multiple pages or tabs.  This takes up a lot of screen real estate.  They can all be detached or maximized, but there are times where you will want to work with multiple windows simultaneously which is most easily done from the Command Center.  I will continue to make suggestions to the developer to improve the platform and as mentioned above here is an example of that thus far:

Hi Scott,

Looks like many of your suggested changes have been added to version 1.0.12.  I'm messing around with them now.  

 

1. For Cost basis of position, there is a button up top of the Risk Portfolio that allows a toggle between cost per contract/share and total position cost.  Also, a current VALUE column has been added.

2. If you choose a confirmation box before a trade, when you go to modify an order from the Order page, a box will appear confirming your changes.

3.  Mid point for spreads not there yet...give us a bit on that one.

4. For stock traders, auto exit order is available now.

 

Let me of any questions.

 

Thanks,

 

Lex

 

  Kevin "Lex" Luthringshausen

  OptionEyes, LLC

  lex@optioneyes.com

  M: 312.343.5273

 

I did a quick search and may have missed it, but did you do an ACAT transfer from IB to Tradier? How long did it take? 

I see you had some issues with cost basis, did you find out if the information tracked properly across the transfer?

[SBatch]

1 minute ago, Sirion said:

I did a quick search and may have missed it, but did you do an ACAT transfer from IB to Tradier? How long did it take? 

I see you had some issues with cost basis, did you find out if the information tracked properly across the transfer?

I think you may have seen a different member with issues regarding the transfer.  I was actually with OptionsXpress not IB.  I did do an ACAT and it took about 5 business days.  All information was properly transferred from OX to Tradier in my case.