Brokers and commissions

[Daisy]

1 minute ago, Kim said:

Those look like the actual trades.

Yes. Would it be possible to see the actual trades in IB similar to TOS?

[Kim]

7 minutes ago, Daisy said:

Yes. Would it be possible to see the actual trades in IB similar to TOS?

I'm not sure, will need to check.

[Djtux]

11 minutes ago, Daisy said:

Yes. Would it be possible to see the actual trades in IB similar to TOS?

Last time i checked IB, i could not find something similar to the 'Option Times&Sales' from TOS which gives you all the option trades of the current day on a symbol.

On IB TWS, there is a 'Times&sales', but it's for a specific combo option, or individual options. Not all the option trades on that symbol.

This is why i keep TOS around along with TOS thinkback to see the historical option chains.

[Daisy]

11 minutes ago, Djtux said:

Last time i checked IB, i could not find something similar to the 'Option Times&Sales' from TOS which gives you all the option trades of the current day on a symbol.

On IB TWS, there is a 'Times&sales', but it's for a specific combo option, or individual options. Not all the option trades on that symbol.

This is why i keep TOS around along with TOS thinkback to see the historical option chains.

Thank you.  Unfortunately I’m unable to open TOS as I’m based in the UK.  Would help so much to see real trades executed.

[slego]

Does anyone using tradier and trading with a 10k account know approximately how much they paid in commissions for the month of January?  

[slego]

As i mentioned earlier i am a Fidelity user with a 10K account and was wondering how it compared to commissions paid if i was using Tradier. As no one replied i went ahead and created a spreadsheet which simulates the commissions paid for both Fidelity and Tradier accounts for a 10k, 20k, 30k and 40k account. 

 

The findings are based on the trades i made from Jan 1 2020 to Feb 12 2020, which follow 90% of the official trades posted. The trades i don't make are the ones where i am too far off from the posted entry price and avoid chasing. 

 

It assumes 0.35$ per contract with a 5.00$ minimum for single leg and 7.00$ minimum for multi leg with Tradier and a 0.65$ per contract using Fidelity. It of course does not take into account different fill prices that would've been obtained using each broker and assumes the Fidelity fills were obtained for both.

Here is a summary of the findings:

Commissions paid Jan 1 2020 - Feb 12, 2020:

 

10K account:

Fidelity: $328

Tradier: $652

 

20K account:

Fidelity: $657

Tradier: $682

 

30K account:

Fidelity: $986

Tradier: $744

 

40K account:

Fidelity: $1315

Tradier: $845

 

The trend continues with Tradier being more and more competitive as the portfolio size increases with the break even point being around the 20k portfolio size. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 12, 2020 by slego

[Kim]

3 minutes ago, slego said:

It assumes 0.35$ per contract with a 5.00$ minimum for single leg and 7.00$ minimum for multi leg with Tradier

 

Why??? You can trade Tradier at $10/month - Tradier Brokerage Special Offer 

[Stanislav]

3 minutes ago, slego said:

It assumes 0.35$ per contract with a 5.00$ minimum for single leg and 7.00$ minimum for multi leg with Tradier

What? Tradier has special offer for SO members - $10/mo for commission free option trading (so you pay only exchange and regulatory fees, around 11 cents per contract).

[slego]

2 minutes ago, Kim said:

Why??? You can trade Tradier at $10/month - Tradier Brokerage Special Offer 

Wow, I had no idea, well i guess the analysis applies only then to without the special offer. 

[Kim]

Please make sure to read Summary of SteadyOptions Discounted Offers. Those offers are mentioned in all monthly updates and few dedicated emails, not sure why some members are not aware of those offers..

[CJ912]

2 minutes ago, slego said:

Wow, I had no idea, well i guess the analysis applies only then to without the special offer. 

$10/mo might be possible, but it limits you to the evry minimalistic Tradier website as a trading tool. I would suggest you assume $60/mo to include tradehawk. It's still an amazing offer.

[rasar]

Another brokerage buyout. Morgan Stanley buys E-Trade.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/20/investing/morgan-stanley-buys-etrade/index.html

[Sirion]

Is anyone aware if Interactive Brokers has any partners for UIs like TradeHawk with Tradier? 

I've personally decided to move away from Tradier, but man once you get used to a nice quick options UI it's frustrating to move back.

Or maybe IB has tools to let you set up faster trades yourself?

[Stanislav]

@Sirion, did you have a chance to look at OptionNET Explorer? I use it with TWS all the time. ONE has a very user friendly GUI, they could do slightly better expiration cycle selector and adding some feature to modify existing Model position in a TOS way would be helpful. But besides than that, ONE's option chains are the most simple and intuitive that I've seen in option software packages (with the only exception of OptionVue).

[Stanislav]

UPD: I looked at ONE's expiration cycle selector. Found that if I right click on it, ONE displays the full list of available terms, so we don't have to scroll back and forth looking for the particular cycle. I did not know of this feature existed. Nice!

 

[Javier]

Anyone working with ONE. I have neve

33 minutes ago, Stanislav said:

UPD: I looked at ONE's expiration cycle selector. Found that if I right click on it, ONE displays the full list of available terms, so we don't have to scroll back and forth looking for the particular cycle. I did not know of this feature existed. Nice!

 

Stanislav, have You ever been able to use the monitor dock and monitor grid One features properly?. My open positions seem to show T=0 setup. Maybe my laptop time and/or zone should be set up differently?

[Stanislav]

2 minutes ago, Javier said:

Anyone working with ONE. I have neve

Stanislav, have You ever been able to use the monitor dock and monitor grid One features properly?. My open positions seem to show T=0 setup. Maybe my laptop time and/or zone should be set up differently?

@Javier, First of all I use latest BETA version of ONE as I found it works better than a release version (for example I had a trouble placing VIX trades from ONE v1 - needed to switch to IB chains for this).

Next, I configured ONE to show only one expiration cycle at a time:

 

This way it is easier for ONE to meet IB's max number of realtime lines requirements. So ONE works much more stable with only one chain in GUI.

 

Finally, no, I do not now use Monitor Grid and Monitor Dock features, mostly because when I have a large number of positions opened, these features tend to quickly exhaust "IB max realtime lines" and start working incorrectly, so I need to restart ONE and TWS datafeed to fix it. I decided it is easier to just watch at "UNRLZD P&L" column on TWS Portfolio page. This works well for simple SO setups.

[Djtux]

Robinhood has some problems today :

[TrustyJules]

13 minutes ago, Djtux said:

Robinhood has some problems today :

The Sheriff of Nottingham had said he would be cracking down on RH

[mccoyb53]

@DaniloCastello. I don't know but I think using an Italian broker would be charging very high commissions. I know that is the case in Ireland where I live. I use IB and have been for the past 7+ years. They are not the cheapest but some US brokers that don't charge any commissions and just a relatively small monthly fee have not extended their services to Ireland. I know I can do Iron condors on  IB as a four legged trade. I hope this helps. There is a long string on the TOPIC of Brokers and commissions. If you haven't read that it would be worth a look.

[DaniloCastello]

thanks @mccoyb53 I lived in Dublin for 13 years....ah Copper Face Jacks.....I miss those nites out 🙂

anyway, regarding Interactive Brokers, will the money be held in a US account in USD? do they have special commission structures for SO customers? thanks 

[luxmon]

Looks like someone forgot to account for the leap year, oh my. 

[Peeyotch]

1 hour ago, luxmon said:

Looks like someone forgot to account for the leap year, oh my. 

This right here is why I'm so hesitant to leave Interactive Brokers in search of better commissions. "Move fast and break things" is a fine mantra for a startup, but I'm not trusting my trading account to it! This sort of development and QA failure is endemic of the attitude of RH, to say nothing of the infinite leverage debacle of last year. I don't have much faith that other fintech startups are any better when push comes to shove comes to panic. 

In my mind, the commissions I pay to IB give me peace of mind that one, their platform is robust (even if TWS looks terrible) and two, when the &#@$ hits the fan, I can call an actual human broker on a telephone who will follow my instructions to safeguard my account in a crisis. Robinhood has an email address. People who were positioned short lost hundreds of thousands of dollars today because there was no way to execute trades, and RH is about to be in a(nother) mountain of trouble.

 

Maybe I'm tarring an entire class of companies unfairly, but I personally prefer being able to sleep at night to saving money. Call it insurance.

[mccoyb53]

2 hours ago, DaniloCastello said:

thanks @mccoyb53 I lived in Dublin for 13 years....ah Copper Face Jacks.....I miss those nites out 🙂

anyway, regarding Interactive Brokers, will the money be held in a US account in USD? do they have special commission structures for SO customers? thanks 

Was never in Copper Face Jacks but spent over ten years in Dublin myself in college and University. Loved Dublin but as a student i couldn't afford that place. If you ever make it over to Ireland again let me know and we can relive the good times.

I opened a Euro account in London as far as I remember over 7 years ago. It was easy to do. I was with another American Broker at the time and IB saved me a huge amount on commissions. Even with IB lower cost commissions they do add up. In 2018 I made 109% for the year after commissions and before commissions it was 116%. Just saying that commissions are very important. See below a comment I made to @Krisbee over a year ago.

 

 

osted January 10, 2019

  On 1/10/2019 at 10:23 PM, krisbee said:

around 100$ per month is what they charge. so 1.2k a year. It's unbelievably cheaper than what I used to pay in IB. 

Think about this, IB commissions appx 3 cents getting in a RIC, 3 cents getting out of RIC, 6 cents gone. certain exchanges i don't exactly remember (something like phx..) are costlier. There are lot of advantages of IB, we cannot compare. BUT what we do with SO, in my opinion Tradier/tradehawk is good enough. Thanks to @SBatch for that.

I never had any fills problem with tradier. 

I had no idea it was that much a difference. I am resident in Europe. ( Ireland.) I hope I can use Tradier as a non US citizen. My commissions last year with IB was over 6,000$!!! So the savings would be massive for me. Many Thanks @Krisbee and @sBatch. On the positive side I made a 109% return on SO trades in 2018 including commissions so I am in no way complaining. Excluding commissions my returns would have been approx 116%.

 

[DaniloCastello]

thank you @mccoyb53 for the invitation! i still have some apartments in Dublin, they are rented, so I have to come sooner or later just to hug them and check they are still there ahah

for what regards option commissions, i will definitely do as many SO trades I can (I have limited access to weekly options on stocks also with my italian broker), and then based on my results i will decide to open an account with IB, which is also good because I do want to keep some money in a foreign account even though this will force me do to an income return specific for trading options

so for us, non US residents, what would be the best brokers, aside from Interactive Brokers, that connect with ONE software (do you actually use an option software)?

 

thanks!

[mccoyb53]

 

  14 hours ago, DaniloCastello said:

thank you @mccoyb53 for the invitation! i still have some apartments in Dublin, they are rented, so I have to come sooner or later just to hug them and check they are still there ahah

for what regards option commissions, i will definitely do as many SO trades I can (I have limited access to weekly options on stocks also with my italian broker), and then based on my results i will decide to open an account with IB, which is also good because I do want to keep some money in a foreign account even though this will force me do to an income return specific for trading options

so for us, non US residents, what would be the best brokers, aside from Interactive Brokers, that connect with ONE software (do you actually use an option software)?

 

thanks!

@DaniloCastello. I think it would be best if we tranferred this discussion to the Brokers and Commisions topic. https://steadyoptions.com/forums/forum/topic/5-brokers-and-commissions/?page=20 but to answer your question. I still use IB because I am used to it and I like the mobile app a lot. I know @TrustyJules ( also in Europe) uses Tastyworks. I used Tastyworks for a while but never got around to comparing the commissions between IB and Tastyworks. When I used Tastyworks and IB together it was hard to keep up with both and a I lost money on Tastyworks because of been out of sight and out of mind as I didn't close my positions in time which stung me on a number of occasions.

 

[mccoyb53]

@TrustyJules. I think you are using Tastyworks. If so how are you finding the commissions. Maybe we can compare IB to Tastyworks on some common trades we have done.

[TrustyJules]

Just now, mccoyb53 said:

@TrustyJules. I think you are using Tastyworks. If so how are you finding the commissions. Maybe we can compare IB to Tastyworks on some common trades we have done.

Sure which ones did you have in mind?

[mccoyb53]

Let me check where we did common trades and I will send you a screenshot.

[mccoyb53]

I think you did CPB as well. Here is my screenshot for CPB trade confirmations on IB.

 

 

[TrustyJules]

I only managed one of the CPB trades. The last one I couldnt get in:

[mccoyb53]

2 hours ago, TrustyJules said:

I only managed one of the CPB trades. The last one I couldnt get in:

Thanks @TrustyJules.I just worked out that I did 100 trades on CPB in total . Total commissions 43.97. Which is 44 cents per trade. Looking at yours above you did 80 trades for a cost of commissions plus fees of 41.3 or 51 cents per trade. I am not sure if I am comparing apples with apples though. I made a total profit of 427$ +9.6% on those trades including commissions so profit would have been 427 + 44 or 471 or 10.6% if I didn't have to pay commissions. A difference of 1% in profitability because of commissions. Not complaining but if anyone comes across a no commissions broker for Europe I am all ears!!! 

[Arthur]

@mccoyb53 Have you tried Tradier? They do accept come European countries (not sure about Ireland).

[Cerulean]

I have a new broker with commissions down to $0.20 with no data charge.  saves me a fortune.  I opened the account in the UK.  If you want more info send me a message.

[zxcv64]

3 hours ago, paul1971 said:

I have a new broker with commissions down to $0.20 with no data charge.  saves me a fortune.  I opened the account in the UK.  If you want more info send me a message.

Paul, care to mention the broker publicly so I could join too?

Cheers

 

 

[Djtux]

https://status.robinhood.com/

 

Robinhood is down again. I'm not that much impacted as my primary broker is Interactive Brokers.

 

[johnjames]

I'm finding Interactive Brokers seems to be partially down.  I can't get live quotes on TWS.  Charts are ok, but only of course for the one ticker which was last on screen

[Stanislav]

3 minutes ago, johnjames said:

I'm finding Interactive Brokers seems to be partially down.  I can't get live quotes on TWS.  Charts are ok, but only of course for the one ticker which was last on screen

TWS works fine for me. Try Ctrl+Alt+F in TWS to reinitialize IB datafeeds.

 

[johnjames]

Thanks Stanislav, no luck at the moment.  I will give it a few minutes and call support if it doesn't rectify itself

[johnjames]

I spoke to IB technical assistance and they are currently experiencing problems with their servers in Asia; I am in Sydney.  They have no estimated time as to when they will be up and running again.  I think i am lucky to not have any urgent positions to place or adjust 

[drcrc]

 

I have been with Interactive Brokers for a long time, but the fact that they don't offer OCA (one cancels another) orders for options combinations is becoming a dealbreaker. I have to babysit my trades when I could otherwise setup everything and step away.

I like that Interactive Brokers gets good fills, and has low margin rates. It's unfortunate that they have this limitation on order types.

Is anyone else using OCA for options combos at another broker they would recommend?

Don't want to trade one problem for another -- e.g. pickup the ability to do OCA option combos, but get crummy fills, have tough margin rates/calculations, or an unreliable platform.

Thanks

 

[Stanislav]

19 hours ago, drcrc said:

 

I have been with Interactive Brokers for a long time, but the fact that they don't offer OCA (one cancels another) orders for options combinations is becoming a dealbreaker. I have to babysit my trades when I could otherwise setup everything and step away.

I like that Interactive Brokers gets good fills, and has low margin rates. It's unfortunate that they have this limitation on order types.

Is anyone else using OCA for options combos at another broker they would recommend?

Don't want to trade one problem for another -- e.g. pickup the ability to do OCA option combos, but get crummy fills, have tough margin rates/calculations, or an unreliable platform.

Thanks

 

@drcrc, Interactive Brokers does support OCA orders for option combinations. You can submit several combo orders (profit target, stop loss), and set "One Cancel Another Group \ Group Name" in the order ticket to the same group name for every order (for example, set OCA Group to "111" for both profit target and stop loss orders).

 

There is also "OC Grp" column in watchlist.

 

Note that you can only modify "One Cancel Another Group" in the order ticket before the order is submitted to the exchange. After order is submitted, with empty "One Cancel Another Group", you can not longer modify this field. Slightly inconvenient, but that is how it works.

 

 

[Bull3t007]

2 hours ago, Stanislav said:

@drcrc, Interactive Brokers does support OCA orders for option combinations. You can submit several combo orders (profit target, stop loss), and set "One Cancel Another Group \ Group Name" in the order ticket to the same group name for every order (for example, set OCA Group to "111" for both profit target and stop loss orders).

 

There is also "OC Grp" column in watchlist.

 

Note that you can only modify "One Cancel Another Group" in the order ticket before the order is submitted to the exchange. After order is submitted, with empty "One Cancel Another Group", you can not longer modify this field. Slightly inconvenient, but that is how it works.

 

 

Jup and its super extensive. I wish tradier had the same. 

[CJ912]

I use Tradier with Tradehawk and can actually set OCO orders. It's probably not as extensive as the IB version, but it gets the job done.

[Bull3t007]

16 minutes ago, CJ912 said:

I use Tradier with Tradehawk and can actually set OCO orders. It's probably not as extensive as the IB version, but it gets the job done.

It doesn't work well with hedged straddles though. At IB I used to put a sell GTC order for the whole straddle plus strangle with 15% target and next to that two individual orders for the short call/put with order to close for 0.05. If one of the three executed, the rest would cancel. Whereas now with tradier I can only put one order because you can't have two seperate orders for the same leg. Emailed them about it but they say its just the way it is, incredibly unlogical. 

 

So lets say you have one short call position (-1)

 

And one order for buy to close (+1)

 

You can't have another buy to close (+1). 

 

I don't understand the logic as the worst case scenario would be that both orders go through and you will just be long one call. No risk for the brokers whatsoever. 

[CJ912]

Maybe I am misreading you, but it seems that should work witrh OT-OCO.I have to say that I am no fan of tradehawk at all. Am actually considering moving to ONE with Tradier.

[drcrc]

2 hours ago, Stanislav said:

@drcrc, Interactive Brokers does support OCA orders for option combinations. You can submit several combo orders (profit target, stop loss), and set "One Cancel Another Group \ Group Name" in the order ticket to the same group name for every order (for example, set OCA Group to "111" for both profit target and stop loss orders).

 

There is also "OC Grp" column in watchlist.

 

Note that you can only modify "One Cancel Another Group" in the order ticket before the order is submitted to the exchange. After order is submitted, with empty "One Cancel Another Group", you can not longer modify this field. Slightly inconvenient, but that is how it works.

 

 

Thanks @Stanislav but I don't see any reference to OCA group in the Strategy Builder, nor the order confirmation box after that. I only see OCA in Order Management which allows for simple option legs, not combinations as far as I can tell.

Incidentally, before posting my question in the forum here, I reached out to Interactive Brokers and they told me there is no OCA for combinations. 

If you have a screenshot of how you do it, that would be greatly appreciated. Thanks again

[Bull3t007]

5 minutes ago, drcrc said:

Thanks @Stanislav but I don't see any reference to OCA group in the Strategy Builder, nor the order confirmation box after that. I only see OCA in Order Management which allows for simple option legs, not combinations as far as I can tell.

 Incidentally, before posting my question in the forum here, I reached out to Interactive Brokers and they told me there is no OCA for combinations. 

If you have a screenshot of how you do it, that would be greatly appreciated. Thanks again

1) https://www.interactivebrokers.com/en/software/tws/usersguidebook/specializedorderentry/create_a_combination_order.htm

2) https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=47&v=4suN5RPR6ow&feature=emb_title

Don't use mosaic. Use the traditional TWS tab. 

Enter the combo in one of the rows. The row under you want to put the other combos or legs. 

It is definiteley possible as I used the feature all the time, can't imagine they have removed it. 

[Bull3t007]

12 minutes ago, CJ912 said:

Maybe I am misreading you, but it seems that should work witrh OT-OCO.I have to say that I am no fan of tradehawk at all. Am actually considering moving to ONE with Tradier.

Il try it again later, hopefully something changed. 

[Stanislav]

2 hours ago, drcrc said:

Thanks @Stanislav but I don't see any reference to OCA group in the Strategy Builder, nor the order confirmation box after that. I only see OCA in Order Management which allows for simple option legs, not combinations as far as I can tell.

Incidentally, before posting my question in the forum here, I reached out to Interactive Brokers and they told me there is no OCA for combinations. 

If you have a screenshot of how you do it, that would be greatly appreciated. Thanks again

@drcrc, I think @Bull3t007 has already given a very comprehensive answer to your question. What I do - I prepare a combo orders using ONE software, and then modify "OCA Group" column in TWS Mosaic in a window where orders are displayed ("OCA Group" column needs to be added manually using a similar procedure as in the video above) .

Edited April 7, 2020 by Stanislav