Trading and getting fills with Interactive Brokers

[Xfanman]

So I started using IB yesterday on the webtrader.. to close out a straddle do I just enter in an opposite sell to close order in the spread part?

Yes, or you can use the "Close Position" feature by right clicking on the Straddle and selecting Trade/Close Position and following it from there.

[Kelly Park]

Does anyone know what other ramifications there are to being tagged as a PDT, besides needing 25K in your account? Doe sit affect IRS treatment? Since just opening and closing one RIC on the same day triggers it, I need to understand it better.

[Xfanman]

Kelly, first of all I'm no expert, but as I understand it being labeled as a PDT is a SEC rule not an IRS treatment. The IRS classifies your trades as long term or short term but the PDT is to (allegedly) keep smaller traders from blowing up their accounts day trading. Usually the broker will freeze your account and put you in the penalty box for 90 days and not allow you to trade (except to close your existing positions) unless you meet the PDT margin call and deposit enough in your account to have more than 25k OR you wait our your time and they reset you after 90 days. Here is IB's statement on PDT -->

Overview:

The FINRA and NYSE instituted regulations intended to limit the amount of trading that can be done in accounts with small amounts of capital, specifically accounts with less than 25,000 USD Net Liquidation Value. A Pattern Day Trader is someone who effects 4 or more day trades within a 5 business day period. You have violated these rules and are therefore subject to PDT restrictions.

Background:

According to the governing bodies, you are now disallowed to initiate any new positions (though you can always close out preexisting positions) for a period of 90 days. You do have options which are:

a) Deposit funds into the account which bring the account value greater than USD 25,000. Accounts valued greater than USD 25,000 are allowed unlimited day trades.

Create a web ticket through Account Management, requesting that IB reset your PDT status. The subject of the ticket should be PDT Reset. Once the ticket is sent to IB, a representative will reply with a letter that contains instructions on what you need to do. Respond to this with corresponding answers if you wish to reset, and IB will review each case individually. In general, an account is allowed one reset in a 180 day period, and a maximum of 2 resets in a rolling calendar year.

Also, here's a link to the IRS treatment of Traders where it states that Trader or Daytrader has no meaning to the IRS -->

http://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc429.html

Edited August 21, 2012 by Xfanman

[Kelly Park]

Thanks, Scott. I don't mind adding $ to my account, I've already requested the transfer, but it takes forever to get from Fidelity to IB and even longer for them to credit it. And their "reset" takes 5 days. So I'm gonna get hurt on the couple of calenders I have with short weeklies I need to roll this week.

"Poor, poor pitiful me."-Linda Rondstadt.

[Xfanman]

Kelly, if you don't mind spending the wire fee I find that the fastest way to move money. IB credited my wire almost immediately after I sent it.

[Guest DShaver]

That response you posted Xfan, is the same thing TD tells me, but they do give me warnings when I have "round trips" or day trades. The main page of my online account will show a box that says: Warning you have _ of 4 day trades in the past 5 days. with a link explaining the same thing you just did. But I do think it's bullshit.

[temper]

Is anyone using Webtrader for placing orders?

I am working, so half of the day (and start of the session) behind firewall.

And Webtrader is so slow that makes placing orders almost impossible. Can't imagine say rolling IC with this one.

At times I am getting information that some script is running and making PC very slow. Has anyone had similar issue or could that be just my PC?

Is mobile version of IB flexible enough to place/amend orders?

Has anyone experience with other brokers while behind firewall?

[Marco]

Is anyone using Webtrader for placing orders?

I am working, so half of the day (and start of the session) behind firewall.

And Webtrader is so slow that makes placing orders almost impossible. Can't imagine say rolling IC with this one.

At times I am getting information that some script is running and making PC very slow. Has anyone had similar issue or could that be just my PC?

Is mobile version of IB flexible enough to place/amend orders?

Has anyone experience with other brokers while behind firewall?

their mobile app isn't too bad. Did you try that one?

[Xfanman]

Is anyone using Webtrader for placing orders?

I am working, so half of the day (and start of the session) behind firewall.

And Webtrader is so slow that makes placing orders almost impossible. Can't imagine say rolling IC with this one.

At times I am getting information that some script is running and making PC very slow. Has anyone had similar issue or could that be just my PC?

Is mobile version of IB flexible enough to place/amend orders?

Has anyone experience with other brokers while behind firewall?

Is this a work computer? Can you not install the desktop version of TWS, it works well even with slower network connections if you're able to do it. I've used the iPad and iPhone version of their Apps ( but not the Android) and you can trade combos on them both just fine. The only issue I've found is that you don't see the value of your trade before you commit to it. This caused me to buy 10x more contracts then I intended once ( but it turned out well) so you need to be cautious.

[RobertB]

Yes, WebTrader is an extremely stripped down version of TWS. But at least it works behind a firewall. You can make TWS work behind a firewall, but you'd have to get your IT person to forward some ports to your work computer. This is usually in most companies both a security breach and also a red flag that you're trading options while you're supposed to be working. So perhaps it's not a good idea to request it. But, technically, it's a simple matter for IT to forward the ports if you have permission to do so.

I haven't tried this, but this might work. Since people here have stated that the mobile apps for IB seem to have some nice features, perhaps you can get a mobile app to work on your computer. I believe I've seen programs you can download that will spoof an app into thinking it's running on an iPhone. Thus, you could then use the mobile app on your PC. Again, I haven't tried this.

[temper]

Hi All,

Thanks for replies.

Xfanmann: I presume desktop versions are for apple only not windows?

RobertB: not that techie person, but thanks for the lead, will do some search on that one.

Will need to get a decent smartphone then. Looks like iphone would be the best one for that.

[cwerdna]

Is mobile version of IB flexible enough to place/amend orders?

Amend, yes. I've had to use the iPhone version of IB's mobile app to change the limit sell prices on some strangles or straddles before. I only had to do it as I had to be somewhere away from my PC on a day that I need to close out a position.

It's pretty bare bones compared to using (desktop) Trader Workstation, so I can't speak to how good it is for placing trades.

If you're going to get an iPhone, I'd highly recommend waiting for Apple's announcement, which is also certainly going to be Sep 12 (see http://www.macrumors.com/). It seems likely it'll be available for sale ~Sept 21 to 30. I would NOT buy any iPhone right now, esp. not the 3GS nor 4. If you get the 4S, you'll be a generation behind whatever's the most current after the announcement.

(I have an iPhone 4 that I bought >2 years ago and will be upgrading to whatever the next iPhone is called (e.g. iPhone 5, "the new iPhone", etc.))

Edited August 27, 2012 by cwerdna

[Xfanman]

Hi All,

Thanks for replies.

Xfanmann: I presume desktop versions are for apple only not windows?

RobertB: not that techie person, but thanks for the lead, will do some search on that one.

Will need to get a decent smartphone then. Looks like iphone would be the best one for that.

IB has a Windows version of their TWS software as well as Apple version. You can download it off their main page here -->

http://individuals.interactivebrokers.com/en/control/systemstandalone.php?os=win&ib_entity=llc

If you're seriously looking at trading off an iPhone, look at the iPad too with LTE or 4G coverage, there's a lot more screen room and the faster connection is nice too unless you're always on WiFi.

Edited August 28, 2012 by Xfanman

[tjlocke99]

IB has a Windows version of their TWS software as well as Apple version. You can download it off their main page here -->

http://individuals.i...n&ib_entity=llc

If you're seriously looking at trading off an iPhone, look at the iPad too with with LTE or 4G coverage, there's a lot more screen room and the faster connection is nice too unless you're always on WiFi.

Please note that the Android version of MobileTWS does NOT support trading spreads. Good luck. I have a full time job that doesn't afford me access to my broker often, and I can tell you it requires finding your own niche to these strategies. In the end that may work for you too rather than trying to trade on an iPad alot!

Again good luck!

[temper]

Xfanman: Got what you say. TWS will not run behind firewall unfortunatelly, even as a desktop version.

Tjlocke99: Yes, working full time and looking at the trades can be very creative. Working from Europe so at least part of the session could be avilable to me. Makes closing orders just before earnings a bit easier. I tried use limit orders to get into trades, but recently that means more often missing the trade than getting it. Especially when stock is moving.

Will not necesserily wait for new iPhone: we tend to get things a bit later than in US.

Thanks for all your replies.

[cwerdna]

I haven't tried this, but this might work. Since people here have stated that the mobile apps for IB seem to have some nice features, perhaps you can get a mobile app to work on your computer. I believe I've seen programs you can download that will spoof an app into thinking it's running on an iPhone. Thus, you could then use the mobile app on your PC. Again, I haven't tried this.

The bolded part is highly unlikely. Good luck finding one, esp. a reliable one.

The only simulator I'm aware of is w/iOS SDK (http://developer.app...pplication.html). No idea if it can run 3rd party apps (ones you didn't write).

Even if you got the iOS version of IB's app to run in the above simulator on a Mac w/the SDK installed, there's still the connectivity issue.

Temper may want to look into using his own laptop (to run full blown TWS) w/a mobile wi-fi hotspot device (e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MiFi) or USB dongle that provides 3G (or above) service.

Xfanman: Got what you say. TWS will not run behind firewall unfortunatelly, even as a desktop version.

Have you tried mucking w/the proxy server settings in TWS? Click on "show all fields" at the first dialog. And, yes, your IT people would likely need to enable certain ports to be forwarded or opened up.

Edited August 28, 2012 by cwerdna

[temper]

Would love solution with my own laptop. But this is a day time job, need to be somehow discrete that I am trading not working. open office does not help on that either.

As WiFi is avilable for work on whole site I presume that is behind firewall as well so no TWS.

And no, IT will not help me trade during my work and will not open ports.

Presume back to mobile apps solution.

[Xfanman]

Would love solution with my own laptop. But this is a day time job, need to be somehow discrete that I am trading not working. open office does not help on that either.

As WiFi is avilable for work on whole site I presume that is behind firewall as well so no TWS.

And no, IT will not help me trade during my work and will not open ports.

Presume back to mobile apps solution.

It sounds to me like an iPad 3 with LTE/4G (or whatever the European equivalent is) would be your best bet. It's more discreet than a laptop, has a larger platform than an iPhone and has it's own connectivity built in bypassing your companies network, plus you could say you use it for iTunes to listen to music as a cover if even that would be an issue. Before I made an investment in either a iPhone or iPad though I'd see if someone you know has one and download Mobile TWS and try it out, you can use their Demo mode (or your own account if you want) to run it through it's paces and see if it's suitable for what you want to do.

Edited August 28, 2012 by Xfanman

[dwilliams8649]

Well... I see two solutions:

1. Connect your iPhone to your laptop and use the hotspot feature.

2. Buy an iPad and download a remote control app, such as crazyremote. This will let you control your home computer and you don't have to worry about the mobile TWS, which sucks. Crazyremote is the fastest out of the others that I've tested. Works great on 3G as well. Crazyremote let's you look at your home computer's desktop and control it like a "remote". You can even watch movies...

[Xfanman]

Well... I see two solutions:

1. Connect your iPhone to your laptop and use the hotspot feature.

2. Buy an iPad and download a remote control app, such as crazyremote. This will let you control your home computer and you don't have to worry about the mobile TWS, which sucks. Crazyremote is the fastest out of the others that I've tested. Works great on 3G as well. Crazyremote let's you look at your home computer's desktop and control it like a "remote". You can even watch movies...

Hmm I never thought of accessing my desktop via my iPad for trading. I use Splashtop to access my desktop which works "ok" but actually making selections on screens is tricky, especially windows with drop downs. Maybe Crazyremote works differently I'll have to check it out.

[Dawajmeister]

Can someone explain the difference b/w P/L and unrealized P/L to me. I attached a screenshot.o

ok no I didn't lol

Edited August 28, 2012 by Dawajmeister

[Xfanman]

http://ibkb.interactivebrokers.com/node/123

[K. Miller]

Unrealized are for trades in the green, (or red for losses) which you have not yet closed. IB bases this on last trade price I believe.

[Dawajmeister]

Ok I get that, but then they also show P/L for the same positions.. that has completely different numbers.. I'd put up a screenshot or attachement but don't know how. Same open positions, different numbers.

[Xfanman]

Does this help?

Position and P&L - shows your profit and loss for the current day. You can elect to show New Position P&L which is only for transactions executed today, or Daily P&L, which includes all open positions plus the New Position P&L.

To set the P&L calculation, right-click the field name and <a name="kanchor2674">select Configure Position and P&L Column.

• To display New Position P&L, uncheck the box to Include today's opening position in P&L calculation. The field heading will display P&L (N) to indicate it's for new positions only.
  

New Position P&L calculation:

(current price - purchase price) x (number of outstanding shares purchased today).

• To display Daily P&L, check the box to Include today's opening position in P&L calculation. The field label will read Position and P&L.
  

Daily P&L calculation: (current price - prior day's closing price) x (total number of outstanding shares) + (New Position calculation for all new positions).

• Unrealized P&L - the difference between the current market value and the average price of your position.
  
• Realized P&L - shows your profit or loss on closed positions, which is the difference between your entry execution cost (execution price + commissions to open the position) and exit execution cost (execution price + commissions to close the position).
  

[Dawajmeister]

Yup thanks alot.

[cwerdna]

That response you posted Xfan, is the same thing TD tells me, but they do give me warnings when I have "round trips" or day trades. The main page of my online account will show a box that says: Warning you have _ of 4 day trades in the past 5 days. with a link explaining the same thing you just did. But I do think it's bullshit.

Thanks, Scott. I don't mind adding $ to my account, I've already requested the transfer, but it takes forever to get from Fidelity to IB and even longer for them to credit it. And their "reset" takes 5 days. So I'm gonna get hurt on the couple of calenders I have with short weeklies I need to roll this week.

I too got bit by the PDT crap on IB due to the lame SEC/NASD requirement.

I had no idea I was even in danger of it until I it was too late, when I received an automated email after the market closed. When I created a ticket to request a reset, they told me I "wouldn't be able to trade" until next Wednesday (!) due to the holiday on Monday. So, forget it, I'm just going to add more funds and not waste my reset.

The FAQ indicates that I should be able to initiate transactions to close positions. Hopefully that means I can place multiple limit sells to close some long straddles I have.

Of course, I didn't even know about the indicator mentioned at http://www.interacti...n&ib_entity=llc under Day Trading > Day Trading FAQs, because that indicator isn't on by default in the account window. You have click the + on the right side of Available for Trading in the account window to see it. You can then check the checkbox to enable it. Booh!

At least TD Ameritrade (on their web site) is pretty clear with the text

Day trade/round trips: 1 in last 5 days or less. Why is this important?

in a yellow box.

I think what took me over the edge was me buying some JOY straddles at various prices today then selling them the same day, also at various prices.

Lesson learned and warning for everyone: If you're going to have a net liquidation value of under $25K in your account, make sure you have another account somewhere else (so that you can continue trading until you get reset or funds make it over) and set aside some $ to bring it above $25K.

I'm guessing (but am not sure) that unfortunately, each leg of a multi-legged transaction ends up counting towards a "day trade". So, I'm guessing that if I buy a straddle and sell it the same day, I already have 2 day trades right there since I opened calls, opened puts, sold calls and sold puts.

Edited August 28, 2012 by cwerdna

[Xfanman]

I'm guessing (but am not sure) that unfortunately, each leg of a multi-legged transaction ends up counting towards a "day trade". So, I'm guessing that if I buy a straddle and sell it the same day, I already have 2 day trades right there since I opened calls, opened puts, sold calls and sold puts.

That would be correct, they count each leg as a separate trade as far as the PDT rule is concerned. One IC purchase and sale in the same day would put you in violation of the PDT rule if your account is less than 25K

Edited August 29, 2012 by Xfanman

[Xfanman]

I wonder why you can chart IV on a stock chart but you can't put it on a Combo or Options Chart? Seems counter intuitive to me. Am I missing something in the settings perhaps?

[Marco]

I wonder why you can chart IV on a stock chart but you can't put it on a Combo or Options Chart? Seems counter intuitive to me. Am I missing something in the settings perhaps?

nope you cant chart IV on an option on IB unfortunately. They just take the atm 30d (I think) IV and add that to the stock chart. That's a lot less data then saving IV for every strike and maturity on a minute by minute basis.

http://www.optionist...f/option-prices

has IV data for each strike and maturity but only close to close values and it will take ~ 2hrs after the close until you can see today's data.

Edited August 29, 2012 by Marco

[Xfanman]

nope you cant chart IV on an option on IB unfortunately. They just take the atm 30d (I think) IV and add that to the stock chart. That's a lot less data then saving IV for every strike and maturity on a minute by minute basis.

http://www.optionist...f/option-prices

has IV data for each strike and maturity but only close to close values and it will take ~ 2hrs after the close until you can see today's data.

Thanks Marco, it's easy to forget about the data demands when you're sitting there staring at a screen. Would be nice though!

[xpresstalk]

OK, so I am trying to put in a order for a 21 Straddle on NAV, I have tried twice and IB automatically cancels the order with a message that says

"Canceled by system: Potential Pattern Day Trade NAV SEP2012 21.00 C"

Anyone run into this before or know a possible solution?

[Xfanman]

OK, so I am trying to put in a order for a 21 Straddle on NAV, I have tried twice and IB automatically cancels the order with a message that says

"Canceled by system: Potential Pattern Day Trade NAV SEP2012 21.00 C"

Anyone run into this before or know a possible solution?

Have you made more than 3 day trades (opened and closed a position on the same day) in the past 5 trading days?

[xpresstalk]

For the most part I follow the SO trades. I made a mistake Friday that resulted in my buying a position that I closed within the hour. That may be what triggered it. Is IB against day trading? Just wondering? I don't do make it a habit of day trading. But, just curious?

[Kim]

For the most part I follow the SO trades. I made a mistake Friday that resulted in my buying a position that I closed within the hour. That may be what triggered it. Is IB against day trading? Just wondering? I don't do make it a habit of day trading. But, just curious?

it's not IB, it's the regulations. If you closed a trade on Friday which is considered 2 day trades, and you are trying to open a straddle today, then closing that straddle today will be another 2 trades which will violate the day trading rules.

[xpresstalk]

it's not IB, it's the regulations. If you closed a trade on Friday which is considered 2 day trades, and you are trying to open a straddle today, then closing that straddle today will be another 2 trades which will violate the day trading rules.

OK, thanks!

[Xfanman]

For the most part I follow the SO trades. I made a mistake Friday that resulted in my buying a position that I closed within the hour. That may be what triggered it. Is IB against day trading? Just wondering? I don't do make it a habit of day trading. But, just curious?

As Kim said it's not IB but it sounds like you've exceeded the allowed 3 day trades in a 5 rolling trading day cycle (opening and closing just 1 Iron Condor would put you outside the rule since it would count as 4 trades). You can avoid this by having more than $25,000 in your account, or open several smaller accounts that you can trade out of without hitting the PDT cap. If you in fact exceeded the rule, you'll have to contact IB to get your account reset and/or add additional funds.

Edited September 4, 2012 by Xfanman

[Kelly Park]

When I was having my PDT issue a couple of weeks ago, I submitted my "reset" request, then realized it would still take too long, so I just added some funds to the account. Does anyone know what happens now, if I do another trade that meets the "day trade" definition? Will the reset cause me problems now, even with over 25K in the account? Basically, I think we all need to be ready to do day trades, since sometimes these SO trades hit profit targets the same day. (And some of us have been known to make the occasional mistake that needs immediate undoing!)

[Xfanman]

Kelly as long as you have more than 25K in your account it doesn't matter that you're classified as a Pattern Day Trader. "If" your account dips below 25K however you're back in the same boat you were a few weeks ago.

AND I should add that because you were already marked as a PDT, they may require you to reset and/or add funds regardless of your recent trading history if you dip below 25k since you've already been marked a PDT even if you haven't "Day traded" for some time.

Edited September 5, 2012 by Xfanman

[Kelly Park]

Thanks, Scott. I guess I'll just have to not lose money, eh?

[Xfanman]

Thanks, Scott. I guess I'll just have to not lose money, eh?

I find that the BEST strategy (let me know if you figure out how to do that though will ya?)

[Rusty]

I just opened an IB account. When I go into options trader or options chains pre or post market, I can view the last options price but the bid and ask fields are blank. I realize that this information outside of market hours may not be valid, but my TOS account displays this, so I am wondering if I am missing a setting somewhere or if this is working as designed. Thanks in advance.

[Xfanman]

I just opened an IB account. When I go into options trader or options chains pre or post market, I can view the last options price but the bid and ask fields are blank. I realize that this information outside of market hours may not be valid, but my TOS account displays this, so I am wondering if I am missing a setting somewhere or if this is working as designed. Thanks in advance.

In IB these won't populate until the market opens.

[Marco]

I just opened an IB account. When I go into options trader or options chains pre or post market, I can view the last options price but the bid and ask fields are blank. I realize that this information outside of market hours may not be valid, but my TOS account displays this, so I am wondering if I am missing a setting somewhere or if this is working as designed. Thanks in advance.

In IB these won't populate until the market opens.

one (inconvenient) way to get the info is to do a (say 2 day) chart and display the bid/offer (or mid if thats what you want)

this way you can see the last bid/offer from the previous day.

[Rusty]

Kim, are the trade fills you paste and post from IB? I haven't found that screen yet. Only the tradelog from the advanced order entry screen.

I'm still learning the IB platform by watching the recorded webinars.

[Kim]

It is from the trade log.

[cwerdna]

That would be correct, they count each leg as a separate trade as far as the PDT rule is concerned. One IC purchase and sale in the same day would put you in violation of the PDT rule if your account is less than 25K

FWIW, it seems TOS/AMTD doesn't seem to be as aggressive in counting PDT. Today on 9/14, I opened 2 AZO RICs and closed them, the same day. The TOS software says 2 day trades left and the TD AM web site says for me "Day trade/round trips: 1 in last 5 days or less. Why is this important?" Each of the 4 orders were all separate orders (2 at different limit prices to open and 2 at limit different prices to close).

It doesn't matter if I get flagged there as I have well over $25K in equity there.

[Xfanman]

FWIW, it seems TOS/AMTD doesn't seem to be as aggressive in counting PDT. Today on 9/14, I opened 2 AZO RICs and closed them, the same day. The TOS software says 2 day trades left and the TD AM web site says for me "Day trade/round trips: 1 in last 5 days or less. Why is this important?" Each of the 4 orders were all separate orders (2 at different limit prices to open and 2 at limit different prices to close).

It doesn't matter if I get flagged there as I have well over $25K in equity there.

My guess is that you've already been marked as a PDT in that account but since you do have more than 25k it isn't a problem. On OH the same thing would happen, I'd get random messages about trade frequency (often inaccurate) but I had enough assets to meet the requirements. As soon as I dipped below 25k when I transferred money out they were all over me even before I made any further trades. Of course you may be correct and they aren't counting it the same, but unless you're below the 25 k minimum it's just speculation on both our parts ;^)

Edited September 18, 2012 by Xfanman

[mcmatterson]

An issue occurred on Friday for me that may affect those who trade calendars. Before 15:00, I had the SPY 141 call calendar mentioned in another thread (long Oct 141, short Sept Wk 141) and was trying to roll my contracts. I had an order in to roll, which I had modified several times till I got a fill on one contract and was waiting on more to fill.

At that point, IB decided to liquidate the rest of the positions. A notification popped up on my iPhone that it had happened, but I never received an email trade confirmation. It has to do with this policy, which I found out after a painfully slow online chat with their tech support.

I found this immensely frustrating because: a) there was plenty of time left, I had an actively-managed order to get rid of the short calls, c) there was no real risk to IB with the long calls covering the short ones, and most importantly d) because they did not make "best efforts" as discussed in the policy to notify me before taking this action (does it seem to you like the policy reads that they will first notify, then take action if still required?). I've put in a ticket and am waiting for a response, which they say may take a month.

The lady with whom I chatted told me that they will liquidate anytime between 13:00 and 16:00, apparently even in cases like mine where the short option is protected by a long one. This is an issue for those trading calendars because often the profitability multiplies in those last few hours.

What do you guys think, am I being unreasonable here?

[mcmatterson]

Also wanted to report a completely separate issue for those who trade with the iPhone app. I went to load the app the other day and it told me that I could not log in as I had too many failed attempts. As the phone had been in my pocket with the screen off and had been used just a few minutes earlier, I thought this was odd.

A chat with tech support revealed that this is a known bug. They were able to contact their apps folks and reset my account within about ten minutes (not counting the 15 it took to connect with tech support). Just something to be aware of.