Not making money yet

[yalgaar 40]

I wanted to start this thread to discuss what and if I am doing something wrong and maybe even suggest some positive improvements that can be made.

I will first start this with declaring I am not making any money using Steady Options so far. As a matter of face I am down around 10-15% of my funds since I started. This is absolutely not intended to criticize this service. The intention is to get to the root of the problem and understand what could be going on.

That said, I am going to list the following observations and would love your thoughts about the same:

1) So we all understand this is not an alert service and should not be used that way. I would like to confirm this again since when used as an alert service, it's very unlikely to make money from it. My P&L confirms this. My understanding is that when you are following official trades....you are not getting the same fills as the official trades. In order to get a fill, you end up giving away more money so you end up never matching the performance of official trades. If/when you choose not to offer more money to get the fills, you will more often not get filled at all. I have raised this concern few times but I have been told there is enough liquidy for the underlying that we should be able to get filled at official prices or better.....but it evens out. I personally do not believe this. I have attempted to take every single official trades within reasonable time of it being announced and either do not get filled at all at official price or I just end up spending more to get filled. This happens for over 70% of official trades (my best guess) I am just emphasizing the importance of setting up expectations that Steady Options just cannot be used as a "Alert Service" It will not make you any money. Most likely you will lose money.

2) Ongoing Cost: I find it quite frustrating to have an ongoing cost of closer to $300 a month for the service itself and bare minimum tools required to understand the trades and the dynamics of those trades. That spend would be justified if you could even create returns close to it by investing/risking 10K. But I have not been able to even create ROI for a 10K account even to be able to break even with the cost involved.

3) Learning: I sure have learnt a lot in last 3 months of being on this. I have spent countless hours going through hundreds of articles and thousands of posts here but honestly I still don't find myself having an edge to create a positive returns for my capital. I sure do understand a lot of things better about Options trading before I had joined. But I believe I still can't convert this acquired knowledge into money even with decent funds to invest.

4) Continuing the last point....is it really so difficult to make money Options trading? I mean with 100s of members here with all the great knowledge, why am I not able to still make money? Is it just me? I am really curious how many members here are able to make decent returns. What are they doing differently? I don't claim to be the smartest person....but I do have basic sense to judge what I am capable of and what my weaknesses are. Why do I still not make money here?

 

@Kim

Again I would like to clarify that this post is not intended as a complain but an attempt to understand what I could be doing wrong and how I can improve on it. I still believe that by making some changes somewhere (I don't know) any and all members here can achieve same or even better performance than the official trades. I would like to achieve that but I am still not able to figure out how.

Edited August 17, 2020 by yalgaar

[Kim 7,943]

We had quite a few topics discussing similar issues. Here are couple topics I recommend reading:

• Best Practices/Tools
• Last 2 months Performance (your topic actually where you got some very advice).
   

To address your points:

1) We recently started tracking trades where members could get a [BETTER PRICING] than the official trade, on entry, exit or both. Please take a look at this list - this is from the last few weeks alone and not a full list.

2) As I mentioned on several occasions, I believe that looking at SO subscription cost (or the cost of any tool or course) as percentage of your account is a mistake. You invest in your trading education. You invest in your future. You expect that what you learn will help you to improve your trading and your profitability going forward. In the same way as people who pay $5-10k for educational course or mentoring program don't expect an immediate return on their investment.

3) This is related to 2) I'm sure nobody expects to become proficient in any area in life in 4 months (engineering takes 4 years to study). It's a process that takes years not months. In no way I'm comparing SO to what is offered at University, I'm just comparing the time it takes to become proficient in any area.

4) Yes, it is difficult and it takes time. If it wasn't, millions of people would become very rich very quickly.  But again, why would it be different from any other area in life? 

To answer your question more specifically: I don't think you doing anything wrong. Just give it more time, and don't forget that those are very challenging and uncertain times, and even much more experienced traders struggle (just to remind you that July was our first losing month since last June). Add some inevitable mistakes you will make trading new strategies (this is why we recommend starting with paper trading) - and here is your answer

[Troy Mclure 31]

6 weeks in no trade yet.  I couldn’t agree more. On CNBC this morning Mark Spitznagel was talking about his 4,000% fund increase since March.  The interesting point about the interview was that even though he buys deep out of the money puts, awaiting a major event like COVID19. But the discipline in only sacrificing up to 1% of his average trade by only holding the derivatives for a day.  It reminded me of how SO is disciplined in defining the risk.  Thanks for all you educational post       

[Kim 7,943]

5 minutes ago, Troy Mclure said:

6 weeks in no trade yet.  I couldn’t agree more. On CNBC this morning Mark Spitznagel was talking about his 4,000% fund increase since March.  The interesting point about the interview was that even though he buys deep out of the money puts, awaiting a major event like COVID19. But the discipline in only sacrificing up to 1% of his average trade by only holding the derivatives for a day.  It reminded me of how SO is disciplined in defining the risk.  Thanks for all you educational post       

Yes. We discussed actually Spitznagel's returns here."Spitznagel included a chart in his letter showing that a portfolio invested 96.7% in the S&P 500 and 3.3% in Universa’s fund would have been unscathed in March, a month in which the U.S. equity benchmark fell 12.4%. The same portfolio would have produced a compounded return of 11.5% a year since March of 2008 versus 7.9% for the index."

This is not exactly apples to apples comparison. I assume the fund itself would be losing money all years, but the mix is what makes it so attractive. It's some kind of hedge, but the one that doesn't lose in up markets.

(off topic. You can comment on Spitznagel fund in the original topic)

[NJ_KenRob 160]

Just my thoughts...

SO Monthly Fee - You can certainly replicate the research that SO does. But I am sure you can not do the research at anywhere near the cost of the SO subscriptions. I am aware that this takes an inordinate amount of hours to accomplish oneself. In my opinion, the real time research and resulting 'Discussion' topics are worth the price of admission alone.

Add to that that we get to follow 'Professional Full Time Traders' into and out of trades has proven invaluable to me.

Add to that the discourse of the discussion topic where an active exchange is taking place regarding a detailed trade.

Add to that the Strategy thought process and historical trades (and discussions).

This is some of the best money I spend every month!!

Tools - Over time I have adapted the trades and strategies to other symbols. In my opinion some type of Analysis software is a core requirement. ONE is excellent and overall a small price to pay for the capabilities it provides. The historical data and visualization capabilities are first rate.

Execution - Every time the service opens up to new members the first thing we here is 'I can;t get the fill'. Search and you will see 100's of posts on this topic. They all generate essentially the same response. Patience, Learn the strategies, Make you own decisions.

I don't take every trade. Sometimes I was not at my computer when the alert came out. Sometimes I can't get the fill that day and neglect to keep tracking for a potential fill in the following days. Sometimes I am just not comfortable with the trade. There are strategies and symbols I like more than others. Sometimes I am at full allocation. With that being said, I found that OS generates plenty of potential trade opportunities. Especially during peak earnings months. 

I think it often gets overlooked that you do not have to match Kim's prices to do very well. As is often mentioned when the 'How much more do I pay to get filled' question comes up. However much your comfortable paying. The guidance is given repeatedly to think in term of percentage of risk. A nickel is not a nickel without knowing the risk. 

So, It is a process!! But there are clearly a decent number of members hear that have gone through that process and are now making money.

 

[Patricio 136]

Hello @yalgaar

First of all, this post is not to contradict you or criticize in any way, most of all is to describe my personal experience with the service.

I subscribed in September last year after two years of trying to be profitable at my options trading and did not went live until late January of this year. So far I've been profitable (not by a great amount) but at least is much better than my previous two years. I've had have no trouble getting in trades at official prices but some of my exists had not been as good also, I've missed a couple of alerts that made my profits be not as good.

What I am trying to say is that experience has a lot to do in the options trading business and that if you expect to be proficient in your first year, even using SO, that expectation is a little to high. Many books and people I've read suggest paper trading for at least 6 months before putting real money on this business also, read as much as you can because knowledge is your main advantage in this game.

Finally, what has worked for me is:

1. Don't chase trades.

2. Set GTC orders to get out.

3. Try to make at least one trade a week on your own,

If you fell that you are at a dead end and really frustrated, take a break from live trading and start from scratch on paper trading until you get used to trade the strategies. Is better to not make money because you are paper trading than loose real money out frustration at the markets.

Best.

[Kim 7,943]

1 minute ago, Patricio said:

What I am trying to say is that experience has a lot to do in the options trading business and that if you expect to be proficient in your first year, even using SO, that expectation is a little to high. Many books and people I've read suggest paper trading for at least 6 months before putting real money on this business also, read as much as you can because knowledge is your main advantage in this game.

 

Yes. And this I keep repeating continuously. But many members want to get back their subscription fee as quickly as possible.. Which I keep repeating continuously is a wrong approach.

[t'pee 541]

For what its worth, I joined the service a few weeks back after educating myself in the basics and to practice I spent the last couple of years trading simple (directional) set ups such as cash covered puts, LEAPS, synthetic longs, bear/bull spreads (And I still do). I am sure that had I joined a couple of years back I would have been hopelessly lost. I now feel I have a few handles to begin to understand some of the discussion and subject matter, but my learning curve here is indeed quite shallow, SO is challenging my mental faculties, I’ve learnt more (Tried to anyway) in a month than half a year prior. My advice to any new/aspiring members would be to make sure you’ve got the basics covered very well, ideally before joining. It’s the only way to be comfortable with entering and exiting trades ‘on your own’  which is the intent I think. Until then, and this has been emphasized in the must read sections: Learn and paper trade until you’re comfortable (or be comfortable with some losses as part of the learning experience).

[gf58 771]

Hi @yalgaar the approach I took was to dump all of my trades out of ONE into a spreadsheet and categorise them by strategy (ie. hedged straddle, earnings calendars) and origin (SO or myself).....closed trades only. From there I looked at the weekly and cumulative P&L of each strategy+origin combination. I used this to get a sense of consistency. From there I grouped the different strategies into 'stuff im good at' and 'stuff im not good at'. I continued doing the stuff Im good at and moved to paper trading the stuff Im not good at.

 

Taking this approach allowed me to focus my learning. I learnt that Im good at executing SO Earnings straddles but I burn money when I try to do them myself. This caused me to focus in on the differences to which I identified that my entries suck. This has lead me on a path of learning thats improved my entry skill on all trades.

 

TLDR: You would have done a lot of stuff my now....pick through what has worked and what hasnt. Focus your energy on improving one thing that hasnt been working...then move onto the next thing.

[vitalsign0 13]

I've been trading options for 5 years and the first 3 were not profitable. Only within the past 2 years have I made any money. Trading options is the hardest thing I've had to learn, which is partly what I like about it, the challenge. 

The hardest thing I've had to learn is patience. The Steady Options service was a critical part of learning that. For a long time I was addicted to selling at a loss out of panic. 

If you just want to make money, go buy the SPY and enjoy other things in life. Options trading is extremely difficult. Services like SO will help you learn, but will not guarantee you money. Although I have made money using the service and following the trades. 

[gf58 771]

An additional insight that Id throw in is that trader 'skill' in entries/exits/ market common sense is a very underated factor amidst all the focus on strategies and set ups. In A Trade to Fade the VXX Im doing well enough but even though its my trade my returns are lower than some other others trading just simply because theyre more experienced and have a better sense of when to get out/when not to get spooked. 

 

Ive learnt a tremendous amount by flying blindly into unsafe conditions or being too conservative (and seeing how others have reacted and why).......so I 100% upvote @Patricios recommendation to do at least one trade a week off your own bat. The official trades can give you a good set up but they dont nessesarily help you build your entry/exit/market sense and I suspect that is equally if not more important than the setup/strategy.

[TrustyJules 3,212]

3 hours ago, yalgaar said:

4) Continuing the last point....is it really so difficult to make money Options trading?

Last point first - yes it is very difficult or a lot of people would be doing it. Whats even stranger is that this is one thing you can be fantastic at and still there will be moments you lose money. The psychology of options trading is possibly one of the hardest things to cope with before you start earning money. I did 20 official trades since June 1st and made 1.12% on those trades in total - so you are not alone in finding it challenging at times. If I include my own trades partially SO inspired I actually lost some money -2.05% in this period. It was a challenging time but due to work issues also had less time to devote to trades and this showed immediately in the losers - the loss is caused by a couple of big losers. The fact I also happened to trade the two big Yowster losers of the past 1.5 months is coincidence. There will be moments like these and the thing to do is to maintain discipline both in terms of risk, entering prices and sticking to your strategy.

 

3 hours ago, yalgaar said:

3) Learning: I sure have learnt a lot in last 3 months of being on this.

You havent really said what you have learnt - for me what I learnt and how much more refined my own trading became is what I am happy to pay SO for. This extends beyond just my own knowledge - others have selflessly given their time and effort to do stuff I can understand but not do on my own. I can however use what they made and this has helped me do trades on my own - in fact most of my trades are not official SO trades though many are inspired or variants of them. Certainly I never understood the volatility instruments and their usefuless for options trading until I came here.

3 hours ago, yalgaar said:

2) Ongoing Cost: I find it quite frustrating to have an ongoing cost of closer to $300 a month for the service itself and bare minimum tools required to understand the trades and the dynamics of those trades.

The cost is a consideration - I belayed joining SO until I felt my portfolio could justify such an investment. Whats more the moment I joined I realised the usefuless of Vol HQ and ONE and so wound up spending even more than just the SO fees. The key thing is that through SO I figured out that those really are KEY resources. There is a million for pay stuff on seekingalpa - I never could figure out whether any one of those services is really worth it or just someone getting paid to publish their trades.

On a 10K portfolio the SO price is a pretty penny but then again - personal opinion once more - I find 10K not enough to have a real options portfolio. Better start with stocks and have some patience. For a variety of reasons I didnt have more than 10K kicking around for years and so though I traded options since the eighties there was a hiatus of more than a decade in which I didnt trade a single option at all. You simply need to have the liquidity to cover losses and adapt positions at times - like I said above - you will lose money at times sometimes weeks and weeks in a row.

3 hours ago, yalgaar said:

1) So we all understand this is not an alert service and should not be used that way. I would like to confirm this again since when used as an alert service, it's very unlikely to make money from it. My P&L confirms this. My understanding is that when you are following official trades....you are not getting the same fills as the official trades. In order to get a fill, you end up giving away more money so you end up never matching the performance of official trades. If/when you choose not to offer more money to get the fills, you will more often not get filled at all. I have raised this concern few times but I have been told there is enough liquidy for the underlying that we should be able to get filled at official prices or better.....but it evens out. I personally do not believe this.

The fills question - if you dont like the fill change the position to one where the fill is better or wait. I find this as tough as the next guy and will usually pay a 1-2% more but really that should be the limit - SO doesnt try to hit 25% all the time so if you lose 2% on entry and 2% on exit you may wipe out any real profit of a trade. Better to wait for a good price or simply develop your own trade where you werent competing with the 100s of members trying to enter a position.

[Mike C 17]

@yalgaar 

I had the chance to find Steady Options just before August 1st before the door was closing for new members... I am a "newbie" here but I have traded for many years. 

Concerning points 2, 3 and 4... I can tell you already that I am sure that I personally have learn enough to pay for my first year of subscription in 3 weeks... In this cost I account for the money I have made and mostly what I save by "avoiding bad trades".  You can lose 1000$ in the blink of a an eye with a bad trade.  

Steady Options is offering the chance to learn limited risk strategies (priceless), discover new trading tools, new ways to assess the edge on possible trades (RV to trade straddles for example), a deeper understanding of the greeks and the chance to read opinions and suggestions many options experienced traders with a passion. Trading can be very lonely...

As for the cost of trading (Point 2) I have learn with time that  "If you think Education is costly, try Ignorance!"... From what I have seen so far, I am 100% certain you more than you pay for at Steady Options but by when I did decide Steady Options membership I understood that I was the captain of my own ship... On the other end (and it is not a critic) if you spend 300$/month on a 10000$ account it means that you have to make 36% a year and then you start to be profitable... It's not an easy job if you only see the short term ... 

I have seen enough so far to tell you that what Steady Options has to offer is a very valuable set of tools to make me (and you) profitable. No doubt in my mind.  Now we need to learn how to use the tools we are provided and make sure I don't hurt myself " by misusing the tools..."  

FYI I already started to make my own trades with the minimum number of contracts because I know I will make a couple of mistake. I just want to make sure that the mistakes I will do will not be too costly... paper trading never offered me the same psychological challenge as real trades. We, as trader,  are almost always the weakest link in a trading system... I would add to what @vitalsign0 mentioned i.e. "Options trading is extremely difficult" by saying that trading is puzzling.  As Alexander Elder mentioned in one of his book “To win in the markets, we need to master three essential components of trading: sound psychology, a logical trading system, and an effective risk management plan.” Steady Options offers, no doubt in my mind, basics for a logical trading system and an effective risk management approach. We, as trader, have the very tough job to have "a sound psychology" and it is the true challenge to be consistent.

Keep in mind that I am only beginning to grasp how to trade the "Steady Options way" but I am convinced that the methods and the education offered here are worthy and I rest assured that Steady Options method has an edge. The track record don't lie.... I would suggest you to stay patient as the system here requires practice and patience. 

To finish with your first point, I just want to share that in the past weeks I already had the taste of what it is to be unable to have good fills. On the entry and on the exit.. I know I paid a too much at least three times to get in a trade.  I also got out of a trade too early. I also kept one trade open too long... and finally I have been completely unable to get a good fill on one the trade I was trying to take... I finally never took that trade... 

Honestly It's frustrating but since I have been trading for years ...I see this a part of the learning process. 

No doubt @Kim and @Yowster know their stuff! I can only suggest to be patient and follow the "house recipe" i.e. "Understand the trades and try to make them your own.".

Good luck!

 

[Ringandpinion 1,657]

My two cents: I've traded options off and on for over 20 years, mostly spreads, lots of verticals, some singles.  My work was always either all on or all off, I did contract work.  So I would trade when I wasn't working and then stop when I got the next job.  I've read tons of books, gone through the big McMillan book and study guide literally twice over the years.  I've taken a couple of expensive mentoring courses.  I am profitable on the SO trades and profitable (not as good) on my own trades done in the styles that I've learned here.  I don't think I can improve on the points other SO members posted above.  I just want you to understand that as a non professional, even though I've had lots of experience and education in options trading, I still spent the first month trying to understand some of the SO vernacular and style.  I still don't get some of it.  Options trading is a massive subject.  If you are starting out, SO should not be your only educational resource.

As far as the SO add ons as I call them.  I hope I don't make anybody mad at me but I like thinkorswim better than ONE.  And since I'm colorblind, the RV graphs on VolHQ are useless to me.  SO I'm not paying for any of the other add ons and I agree that 300 per month is too much for a 10k account.  My original options classes back 98 or so only lied to me about two things: I could do this in my spare time and that it was easy.  So, don't quit your day job, give yourself time to learn. 

[TrustyJules 3,212]

52 minutes ago, Tniko said:

The avg return per trade is 6.1% since inception. You have to deduct commissions as is also admitted by the service. That’s 1-2% depending on your broker. So that leaves 4-5% net, that’s still a lot, right? No, because you still haven’t accounted for slippage. The more advanced know exactly what this is, the newbies don’t. It’s the spread between bid and ask, the difference between the great fills of the service and the not so good ones that are draining your account. In the world of options 4-5% slippage is nothing,

If we take your premise that you have 5% slippage you have a service that offers 6.1% per trade or 1.1% net - with an average of two trades per month you'd be making 25% a year.

Generally speaking Yowster at least announces his forthcoming trades a little in advance - if you master the system you can replicate what he proposes to do and should be able to beat him to it.I guess my biggest issue with your post is that you look everywhere for excuses except at yourself - it simply isnt the walk in the park you thought it would be. Instead it turns out to be hard work.

[Ringandpinion 1,657]

I like to work, I really like to learn and I really, really can't live without challenge, that is why I'm trading options. 

I've made good money with SO even after deducting all expenses, and I get to learn.  I don't look at anybody else's numbers, I look at mine.  I'm up per SO, nicely, say what you want, that's a fact, nobody can change it.

If I think anything I'm looking to buy is misrepresented in any way, I'm gone, I don't spend time whining, or pointing fingers.  It is useless to call an idiot "an idiot" or a crook "a crook".  Shake their dust off your sandals and move on.  Life is short, I'm going to get everything I can out of it, I'm not going to waste time in lamentations, so far regrets have never made my life better.  There is a poem called "The Station" by Robert Hastings that about sums it up, and I normally don't have much use for poetry.  What's with all these negative waves Moriarity?

[MoneyMonkey 17]

20 hours ago, Kim said:

Yes. And this I keep repeating continuously. But many members want to get back their subscription fee as quickly as possible.. Which I keep repeating continuously is a wrong approach.

Kim

If you want to discourage this type of member then may I suggest you that you tell people before they subscribe?   Put on your subscription page "If you are not experienced then you should paper trade the SO trades for the first 6 months".     You might also put "We are not an alert service".   I think this would reduce the complaints.

Matt.

 

[Kim 7,943]

On 8/18/2020 at 11:29 AM, MoneyMonkey said:

Kim

If you want to discourage this type of member then may I suggest you that you tell people before they subscribe?   Put on your subscription page "If you are not experienced then you should paper trade the SO trades for the first 6 months".     You might also put "We are not an alert service".   I think this would reduce the complaints.

Matt.

 

This is very clearly mentioned in the service description. If people don't read it, not much I can do about it.

[TrustyJules 3,212]

9 minutes ago, Tniko said:

Still, the service promised great results by simply following the alerts.

I rest my case.

[Ringandpinion 1,657]

14 minutes ago, Tniko said:

Still, the service promised great results by simply following the alerts. So where are they? 

If it says that, I would've ignored it as being so unlikely as to be meaningless.  And honestly, I didn't read all the literature about SO up front, I signed up for the freebie, liked what they were doing and stayed. 

 

Think about it.  If a trade alert service is that good, then everybody will use it, I mean lots of everybodies, quickly making the trades unprofitable.  Thinkorswim is marketing an alert service called Tradewise, sent me a 2 months free thingy so I took it, it promises to use Thinkorswim's autotrade feature to enter the trades when posted without your interaction.  I took the freebies but I'm not about to let them buy and sell out of my account, that sounds like a shortcut to tragedy.  The truth is, if you think about it, that the concept of an alert service that can guarantee you a profit is not a functional concept for many, many reasons.

[CJ912 136]

I have been a member since November 2018. I was up last year and am up this year. I do both SO and my own trades. SO has definitely helped me develop my trading skills and the community here is a great help. Even if my returns aren't  equal to the performance posted, what is really important is that it is a very uncorrelated  return to the rest of my portfolio.

 

 

[SureTrader 40]

31 minutes ago, Tniko said:

Still, the service promised great results by simply following the alerts

Do they? Can you show where they say that. I am not @Kim or @yowster's minion to blindly support them but this is outright disrespectful to a great service and this community.

Why do you have the need to compare your results with SO or any other member's. Do you feel good if you beat others but not the market? Yeah, last month was a small loss but I can attest to the fact that I made good money this year.

[tucker 7]

13 minutes ago, Tniko said:

Of course you are right. It is true that no promises are made although the whole scheme with real time alerts is inviting you to follow the trades. But my point is that even if you master the strategies and execute your own plan you will not make any money. At least that’s my experience as I tried both following the trades and also executing my own trades. 

This has not been my experience at all. I barely post, and am average at best when it comes to SO strategies, but I've been able to become profitable by doing what Kim, Yowster, and everyone else so tirelessly recommend - reading and re-reading the strategy descriptions, practicing the strategies and adjustments until they're second nature, and getting to the point that I can put my own trades on and not have to follow the trade alerts perfectly in order to succeed. It really does work. It's also really hard. I think everyone has been very honest about that. 

Edited August 18, 2020 by tucker

[Patricio 136]

I think this post is going in the wrong direction, the OP was looking for advice to become a better trader and it all resumes in the following:

1. Read and learn.

2. Practice (live or paper)

3. Be patient, trading is 90% having the right mental state.

In the other hand I think that if you are not satisfied we the service you can always close your account and put your money for better use or find another trading system that suits you better. Also, options trading is not the only way to invest, there are people who is not suited for this. Like choosing a career not everyone could be a doctor, some people are good with their social skills etc etc. Find what you excel at.

[yalgaar 40]

21 hours ago, Kim said:

4) Yes, it is difficult and it takes time. If it wasn't, millions of people would become very rich very quickly.  But again, why would it be different from any other area in life? 

I hear this all the time when a person trying to learn a skill and willing to put in all the hard work and still not making progress. This usually comes from the person who continues to make money while the person trying to learn and master is the one spending it. 🙂

On the contrary to what you say, most successful traders who make consistent good returns use a very simple system that is easy to follow. 

 

 

 

22 hours ago, Kim said:

2) As I mentioned on several occasions, I believe that looking at SO subscription cost (or the cost of any tool or course) as percentage of your account is a mistake. You invest in your trading education. You invest in your future. You expect that what you learn will help you to improve your trading and your profitability going forward. In the same way as people who pay $5-10k for educational course don't expect an immediate return on their investment. Nobody finds it frustrating spending tens of thousands of dollars in university tuition fees, and nobody expects to get back their investment in engineering or medicine degree in 4 months.

You must really be kidding comparing a University degree and what is offered here! I have noticed you have mentioned this multiple times. I am not going to be the one telling you the differences. 

Granted, there is amazing content here related to understanding Options trading. But I will have to say in the end anything and everything boils down to how to make money out of this. I and I am sure almost 100% of the members subscribed based on seeing the juicy performance data of this and not for "Leaning Options trading. I personally found wealth of learning here but I still continue to wonder if I can make money from this. Based on everything that I see here I am skeptical and only sharing my concerns and trying to learn how I can do better if there is still something lacking.

22 hours ago, Kim said:

3) This is related to 3): I'm sure nobody expects to become proficient in any area in life in 4 months (engineering takes 4 years to study, medicine 7 years etc.) but people expect to become proficient in trading in 4 months. It's a process that takes years not months.

Not sure about everyone but I will speak for myself. Your statement is very generalized and quite insulting to me personally since I am all about knowledge and work. But it is very important to spend time and energy on the right education that is sustainable. That said in your opinion is a reasonable expectation from SO subscription? You use works like "years" I don't want to assume anything but are you suggesting it would take years to become profitable while being subscribed here? 

 

 

Again I feel like my post is being taken as a complain while I am just trying to find out what I am missing. Go read the description....go read this and that is really not helping me much. I am not new to trading and the dynamics of it. 

 

[Yowster 9,174]

I'll make a general statement regarding SO strategies and a new members level of experience coming in.   Understanding IV ramafications are a huge part of these trades, and if you are new to options or have only used simple strategies then jumping into many of the SO style trades are like jumping into Calculus but bypassing Algebra along the way.   I can appreciate the learning curve, but knowing how IV changes affect trades and how the typical earnings IV behavior plays out makes it much easier to setup your own trades.   If you make directional trades, you can more easily set things up to minimize IV effects (I think TV shows like Options Action do this on purpose with the simple directional veritcal trades where  IV effects are minimized, so they don't have to get into the details of IV effects), but using trades that start out non-directional you really need to get a good knowledge of IV effects and behavior.

[yalgaar 40]

 

@Kim

Reading some of your posts directed to me, I want to clarify I have no inclinations to argue and waste my or anyone's time. All I wanted is to share my thoughts about my last 3+ months here and my challenges. I wanted to find out how and what I need to further improve. But I find this being not taken in the positive way. 

I wanted to share my conclusions and learn from community opinions. I don't expect anyone to agree with me. We all have right to our own testing and our opinions about things.

I saw value in SO in the following ways when I subscribed:

1) The performance page showed amazing returns. I hoped I could make some % of it in a consistent manner. After following official trades, I realized one just cannot make money just following the official trades. I understand this has been told many time but I wish there were a few more disclaimers in bold about this. I find being mislead and misinformed about this. Why not have 1 page article as will along with 1000s of pages that describes how following official trades here will not make you money with details of all the dynamics about it?

2) The other value is the education of Options trading. I sure realized there is an  ocean of knowledge and information that will help me learn. I was amazed at the wealth of information I found here....the whole format of official trade being taken and all the member discussions is really of so much value. I cannot put a price tag to this. You keep comparing what is being offered here with Medical degree and Engineering degree and reasonable expectations from it. I don't think this can be compared. Very wrong comparison!

 

I would like to conclude that I find this service being not marketed as Options education service.....it is being marketed as "Alert service" even though  you don't a say it that way. I believe with respect to Options Education, this is an amazing place to be. 

 

My suggestions:

1) In the "Must Read" articles, have a page with a disclaimer that the performance showed in the official trades will most likely not be realized by the members and the reasons for it. This will set expectations right.

2) Have a weekly / monthly poll from existing members if they were able to match the official performance. This will further keep things transparent.

3) I have asked this before but still wondering why not disclose number of members. This is vital for the members taking the official trades. As a matter of fact 1 of the reasons why many members are not getting good fills. Don't all members need to know how many estimated orders we are competing with to get a fill at a reasonable price? 

4) Change "Performance Page" available to members only. This way a new member is joining this service for education expectation and not make money in 3 months expectation.

 

 

[Kim 7,943]

10 minutes ago, yalgaar said:

I understand this has been told many time but I wish there were a few more disclaimers in bold about this. I find being mislead and misinformed about this. Why not have 1 page article as will along with 1000s of pages that describes how following official trades here will not make you money with details of all the dynamics about it?

I would like to conclude that I find this service being not marketed as Options education service.....it is being marketed as "Alert service" even though  you don't a say it that way. I believe with respect to Options Education, this is an amazing place to be. 

 

https://steadyoptions.com/forums/forum/topic/1191-welcome-to-steady-options/

 

Honestly, I'm not sure how many more disclaimers I can provide. 

[yalgaar 40]

 

14 minutes ago, Kim said:

Honestly, I'm not sure how many more disclaimers I can provide. 

 

@Kim you are downvoting my posts for suggesting things that would make me value this service more? You are down voting me for speaking up that I felt mislead?

 

About the disclaimers:

"Start with paper trading, start small"

 

This means nothing in Options trading on the context I am referring to. Every strategy and every trade mentioned here will out perform the official performance giving a false idea of profiting to an inexperienced trader.

 

 

"Learn the strategies and make them your own"

This is very good, I really like it. But again I am saying there should be a disclaimer suggesting that following official trades will not make you money. I and I believe most people are misinformed based on the performance page.

 

 

 

Edited August 18, 2020 by yalgaar

[porgie 118]

@yalgaarHello.

Obviously it is your money and your time--and ultimately you decide what works best for you. I joined SO late last year. What I cannot understand is how you are not in profit since you joined. Something seems wrong to me.

Are you "chasing" trades to get fills? When I started I definitely did this and took some small losses if the entry and exit points were difficult. But then I became more patient and would not take a fill 1% above the official posted price. As far as exits--I would set some profit targets and scale out of trades--this has worked well also.

By being more patient many of the official trades I participate in actually get better fills as the prices do fluctuate. If the trade gets posted and runs away I skip it altogether. I would say that has happened roughly 20% of the time as I have become more disciplined. But is that not good trading anyway? If you are trading on your own you set a price you are willing to pay before you enter and if the trade is not giving you that price you walk away.

In addition you do learn to do some trades on your own as you become more comfortable with the setups. You also learn to do modifications of the original official trade setups if the underlying price changes quickly. The professionals here are trying to show us how to put the odds more in our favor when we initiate the trades based on the underlying thesis and that does lead to more wins and profits. (At least it has for me)

Another big factor is the Covid 19 wreaking havoc with the volatility of the market--thus the classic setups are more difficult to find currently.

So my pep talk is to hang in there--stick with the thesis and strategies. Develop your own trades using the recommended tools. This will become a profitable venture for you as it has for hundreds of other subscribers. 

 

[krisbee 1,965]

@yalgaar recently have you tried to place your own SO like trades based on ideas that you got from the discussion thread? if so can you please give some example on how you tried to place different trades reading the materials. 

[DubMcDub 123]

1 hour ago, Tniko said:

Ok, could you provide some data? How long have you been at it and what is your exact performance?

I'm not the one you asked, but I've been a member since December. I take a relatively small percentage of the official trades, and then my own trades based on SO strategies. I average about 12 trades per month. My return since December--on a significantly bigger account than the $10,000 model portfolio, which of course makes it harder to achieve a big return--has been 24% after commissions. My max drawdown during that time is about 11%. About 62% of my trades have been winners. 

 

Related: I also have about 12 years' experience trading options in various non-SO strategies. I suspect my returns would be lower without that experience. It is extremely difficult to make money trading options. Also, my experienced helped me come in with realistic expectations. Nobody is going to make 127% per year trading this strategy. Almost no one will make even half that. But the great thing is, even a tiny fraction of that return is an excellent return. If you make, say, 20% a year with acceptably low return volatility and max drawdown, you are crushing almost every professional who trades in public securities, and you're doing extremely well. 

Edited August 18, 2020 by DubMcDub

[Djtux 548]

18 hours ago, Ringandpinion said:

And since I'm colorblind, the RV graphs on VolHQ are useless to me.

Let me PM you on this. If it's just the colors, i can change the color palette so that it's usable.

[Paul 328]

1 hour ago, yalgaar said:

I hear this all the time when a person trying to learn a skill and willing to put in all the hard work and still not making progress. This usually comes from the person who continues to make money while the person trying to learn and master is the one spending it. 🙂

On the contrary to what you say, most successful traders who make consistent good returns use a very simple system that is easy to follow. 

 

 

 

You must really be kidding comparing a University degree and what is offered here! I have noticed you have mentioned this multiple times. I am not going to be the one telling you the differences. 

Granted, there is amazing content here related to understanding Options trading. But I will have to say in the end anything and everything boils down to how to make money out of this. I and I am sure almost 100% of the members subscribed based on seeing the juicy performance data of this and not for "Leaning Options trading. I personally found wealth of learning here but I still continue to wonder if I can make money from this. Based on everything that I see here I am skeptical and only sharing my concerns and trying to learn how I can do better if there is still something lacking.

Not sure about everyone but I will speak for myself. Your statement is very generalized and quite insulting to me personally since I am all about knowledge and work. But it is very important to spend time and energy on the right education that is sustainable. That said in your opinion is a reasonable expectation from SO subscription? You use works like "years" I don't want to assume anything but are you suggesting it would take years to become profitable while being subscribed here? 

 

 

Again I feel like my post is being taken as a complain while I am just trying to find out what I am missing. Go read the description....go read this and that is really not helping me much. I am not new to trading and the dynamics of it. 

 

 

Posted July 27, 2016

For those of you getting frustrated and a bit confused on how Steady Options operates I would suggest you reduce your size until comfortable with the mechanics, theory etc of the community, model portfolio, trade alerts etc.  iIf you choose to just follow the model and alerts you will do OK, I found I averaged about 80 to 85% of the models returns due to the competition  to get the exact same fills.  After a few months when I started taking advantage of the advice and knowledge on the rest of this site I can happily report I consistently beat the monthly performance of Steady Options.  Have patience.   

 

I posted this a bit over 4 years ago and it still holds.  This isn't rocket science.  I am a member of the KISS crowd. There are enough tall foreheads around here lol.  Obviously you need to pay the subscription fee.  A big time saver is one of the charting programs for about 50 bucks.  I use nothing else.  Glancing at the value of my account right now I figure I am up over 10% this past month.  I consider 100% returns annually the benchmark by applying what I learn here to trades that don't make the official but I do on my own. Right now I have 26 orders in the market but have had no fills since Monday.  Somebody said Dog Days of Summer ha!  It's only as complicated as you want to make it.  You don't have to be an expert on the greeks and volatility, you just have to have a general understanding that they affect the price of the options and wait for that price to come to you.  This probably holds true whether you are with Steady Options or not.

 

[Kim 7,943]

Let me make one general statement about returns.

The 127% CAGR excludes commissions. This is mentioned twice on the performance page (good luck to find a similar disclaimer in most other services). The actual return depends on the broker you are using. Those with Tradier who pay $10/month as part of our deal with Tradier will see a very small impact of commissions. Those who are with IB will be probably impacted by 1-2% per month - again, clearly mentioned in many places.

How much members can make? It depends. Everyone is different. I get messages all the time from members who beat our performance. But it will not happen after 4 months. 4 years is more likely. But yes, it's possible, and I disagree with a general statement like "It's impossible to make returns similar to your stated performance". This is simply not true. 

I will go one step further and say that if you stick around for 3-4 years, you will have a very good chance to make at least half of those returns or more (again, if you account for commissions). Why 3-4 years? Because as I mentioned many times, this is how long it takes to become proficient in any area in life. And if you find it insulting comparing University to learning to trade, maybe you need to adjust your expectations. Doesn't matter if you do it alone, with SO help or with another mentoring program. Our goal is to help you in your journey which is already hard enough. If you want our help, we are here. If you prefer to do it alone, that's fine too. Just don't expect any shortcuts.

Also account size matters as well. Our performance is for 10k model portfolio, it is much more difficult to achieve a similar performance in a $100k account. Again, this is a well known fact and is mentioned in many places, it should not come as a surprise.

But the main point is: you should not compare your results to the official performance, and you should not care how much other members make. If you are new to options, give yourself at least one year, to see the effect of learning, and also neutralize any periods of lower returns. If after one year you still don't find the value, move on.

Everyone's path to success is different. If you read My story, you will see that it took me almost 10 years to become consistently profitable. To many traders it takes much less. To some it takes more. Some don't achieve that goal even after 20 years. Please believe veteran traders who say that this is extremely hard. Please don't believe all the marketeers out there who claim that it's easy to double your account every 6 months with no time and effort.

I'm trying to be as honest and transparent as possible. I know not everyone can appreciate it, but I will always tell people the truth, not what they want to hear.

Here are some articles that might help:

• Probability Vs. Certainty Trap
• Are You EMOTIONALLY Ready To Lose?
• Are You Ready For The Learning Curve?
• Why Retail Investors Lose Money In The Stock Market
• Can you double your account every six months?
• Top 10 Mistakes New Option Traders Make
• Price Of Options Trading Education
• How To Become A More Profitable Trader
• 5 Stages Traders Go Through
• Learning To Win By Learning To Lose
• How To Avoid Emotional Mistakes In Trading
• 10,000 Hours Of Trading
• How Much Do You Need To Trade Options?
• 40 Steps In The Trader’s Journey
• Buy High, Sell Low: Why Investors Fail
• Performance Reporting: The Myths And The Reality
• Is 5% A Good Return For Options Trades?
• Big Drawdowns Are Part Of The Game
• Should You Care About The Sharpe Ratio?
• Do You Still Believe In Fairy Tales?
• How To Calculate ROI In Options Trading
• It Is Time To Get Real

 

@yalgaar  One last comment: the answer to "what I am missing" question is you are not missing anything. You are going through the same path that millions of traders have experienced in the past. And your path might be a bit tougher in the short term because you joined during much more challenging times.  The simple truth is that (at least) 80% of traders fail, and the reason is not they are not smart enough. The reason is they quit too quickly. They think about success in trading in terms of weeks or months instead of years. And you can be insulted by my comparison to University, but my point is that success in any area in life takes years. It's a process.

The fact that you are still here and did not cancel after 3 losing trades says a lot about your character and commitment. 

[b4n 8]

As a very new member I feel very neutral on this topic but perhaps that's why my 2 cents could be useful. 

From reading through people's opinions it's clear that SO as a service is working very well for some, and not so good for others. And there is no lack of good will on both sides. 

 

In my line of business (design), user-centrism is crucial and negative feedback is usually way more useful than positive. If my goal would be design the best educational experience for new traders, first of all I would be extremely grateful for any negative and constructive comments because usually it costs me lot of money to run studies and get those. Here I get it for free, and ROI on those is potentially massive. Secondly, I would double down on trying to get to the bottom of how I can turn around the experience of unhappy users. What's not working for them? What are they doing wrong? What am I doing wrong? How can I change to help them? On other side, I could also survey what successful users do and don't do to see if there are things there that are not explained well or missing. 

 

I don't want to go on too long on this because I have enough of this in my day job, but it looks like there is a big opportunity being missed here that could help SO grow, innovate and become even better service for everybody, but this starts with fundamental yet simple change of approach, which would result in responding to @yalgaar opening statement with something closer to:

 

"Thank you. This is a wonderful initiative, we fully support it and we want to work with you to see how we can make the experience better for you and all other users who think things could be done better".

Edited August 18, 2020 by b4n

[TrustyJules 3,212]

3 minutes ago, Tniko said:

1. You are far too clever to ban people for expressing their opinions.

2. 6% per trade is far too low if you consider commissions and slippage with options. In addition this number includes the “wonder“ calendars with 30-40% return which never get filled in the real world. 
3. You advertise with your performance of 120% CAGR and draw down of 15%, THAT is the definition of the investment holy grail, don’t blame my expectations.

Regarding my motives I will state that I did exactly what you suggested, I canceled and moved on. But when I read the initial post here I was reminded of the exact situation I was in some years ago... so I am not writing for you or any of your hardcore followers but for the newbies out there who will burn time and money for “a learning experience” at best...

You are pretty sour Tniko - you moved on you say - can you tell us to what?

[Alex Papas 2]

3 hours ago, DubMcDub said:

I'm not the one you asked, but I've been a member since December. I take a relatively small percentage of the official trades, and then my own trades based on SO strategies. I average about 12 trades per month. My return since December--on a significantly bigger account than the $10,000 model portfolio, which of course makes it harder to achieve a big return--has been 24% after commissions. My max drawdown during that time is about 11%. About 62% of my trades have been winners. 

 

Related: I also have about 12 years' experience trading options in various non-SO strategies. I suspect my returns would be lower without that experience. It is extremely difficult to make money trading options. Also, my experienced helped me come in with realistic expectations. Nobody is going to make 127% per year trading this strategy. Almost no one will make even half that. But the great thing is, even a tiny fraction of that return is an excellent return. If you make, say, 20% a year with acceptably low return volatility and max drawdown, you are crushing almost every professional who trades in public securities, and you're doing extremely well. 

I cannot challenge your results but you state that you trade only a fraction of SO trades and then you do your own stuff.

The point is that I had also experience with options and I had the exact same thinking. This guy claims to make 120% per year but I need to deduct commissions and the “level of experience”, ok, that should still leave me with a handsome return, right? Wrong, the avg of +6% per trade turns quickly to -2% and if you multiply by the number of trades you reach very fast -20% on total portfolio or worse...

[TrustyJules 3,212]

14 minutes ago, Tniko said:

I cannot challenge your results but you state that you trade only a fraction of SO trades and then you do your own stuff.

The point is that I had also experience with options and I had the exact same thinking. This guy claims to make 120% per year but I need to deduct commissions and the “level of experience”, ok, that should still leave me with a handsome return, right? Wrong, the avg of +6% per trade turns quickly to -2% and if you multiply by the number of trades you reach very fast -20% on total portfolio or worse...

Post your trades please

[DubMcDub 123]

12 minutes ago, Tniko said:

I cannot challenge your results but you state that you trade only a fraction of SO trades and then you do your own stuff.

The point is that I had also experience with options and I had the exact same thinking. This guy claims to make 120% per year but I need to deduct commissions and the “level of experience”, ok, that should still leave me with a handsome return, right? Wrong, the avg of +6% per trade turns quickly to -2% and if you multiply by the number of trades you reach very fast -20% on total portfolio or worse...

To be honest, it's difficult to talk about why someone else isn't having success without seeing their actual trades as compared to the official trades. Few people want to post that information with sufficient specifics, so these discussions end up being unhelpfully general. 

 

If you want to post some of your trades and how they compare to the officials, I'm sure several of us would be happy to look at them and make whatever suggestions we can.

[Patricio 136]

At this point as @DubMcDub has said the conversation has become absolutely pointless. I'm neither a SO blind fan nor a detractor, results are what they are and for some are good and for some are bad as with any other thing in life I haven't seen any product or service in my life that everybody thinks is the best,  there will be happy and not so happy clients what matters is that the first ones are more. Sorry @Tniko and @yalgaar to hear your experience hasn't been good.

Edited August 18, 2020 by Patricio
Grammar

[yalgaar 40]

Thanks for many members for your suggestions and your opinions. It's sad how my thread is taken a very wrong direction of what it was intended for. 

I am amazed at all the wealth of information SO has offered me and thankful to Kim. I sure have learnt a lot. Not sure why my thoughts and my opinions have been taken negatively instead of being thanked for. I believe I am only helping Kim and SO to make this even better for all current and future members.

I am sorry if Kim or anyone does not like me expressing my results, opinions and my thoughts. The fact does not change that I have lost money and do feel mislead due to the the way SO is marketed. 

Now that I realized the performance page is not something that can be achieved by following the official trades....I have some deep thinking to do about the educational value of SO and the cost to pay for it. If I go 3-4 months back, had I been told clearly that I would lose money following official trades for no fault of errors on my part....I would evaluate SO in a totally different way. I am sure no one can deny the juicy carrot being dangled luring you into this. 

[TrustyJules 3,212]

13 minutes ago, Tniko said:

Sure, I spent another couple of years searching for the holy grail in options trading... by the way for me the holy grail would be 20% per year with max. 10% draw down. I tried everything including selling premium which obviously works until it doesnt....

My own opinion is that options are not worth the time or the risk unless you are very lightly capitalized... and then still I havent found anything that works consistently. So now I am back to good old ETF trading along with an interesting seeking alpha stocks momentum trading service with very promising results so far...

I certainly approve of momentum trading - being right on direction with options is the best thing. As regards finding the holy grail - good luck with that it doesnt exist. Your opinion on options is well noted - certainly you are entitled to it and thank you for sharing it. There is no single right way to go about investing, options are a tool that can be helpful it is like a pair of scissors you can use it to cut a bit of paper or slice your ear off. The instrument itself doesnt care what you do with it.

[yalgaar 40]

3 hours ago, Kim said:

@yalgaar  One last comment: the answer to "what I am missing" question is you are not missing anything. You are going through the same path that millions of traders have experienced in the past. And your path might be a bit tougher in the short term because you joined during much more challenging times.  The simple truth is that (at least) 80% of traders fail, and the reason is not they are not smart enough. The reason is they quit too quickly. They think about success in trading in terms of weeks or months instead of years. And you can be insulted by my comparison to University, but my point is that success in any area in life takes years. It's a process.

The fact that you are still here and did not cancel after 3 losing trades says a lot about your character and commitment. 

@Kim

I am not new to trading nor to Options trading. I just didn't find a way to consistently profit from what I have been doing all these years. I have a very long background in risk management and position sizing due to my Forex trading experience. I just feel intentionally or not the official trade performance page just suggests same/similar or better performance can be achieved by the members and still being suggested. But that is really far from truth due to many reasons. I am not criticizing you personally, I am just stating my experience here so far. I have sure learnt a lot and still intend to learn much more from here as time permit me from my super crazy schedule. All I ask is better disclaimers so no new members get a false expectations like me. 

I also think some improvements can be made in the current format. I will put something together as soon as I get more time. I mean I notice there are many many questions just being repeated from many members including me about why certain trade was taken in certain way. I believe this is due to the some of the pages where the original strategy is described is either outdated or needs more details. Even thought it has been described very well but due to the dynamics and complexities of each trade, it sure needs improvements.

[Ringandpinion 1,657]

Take it from an old guy that isn't accustomed to posting on a forum as a form of communication.  If this group were sitting around in a room having this debate, the body language would most likely change everybody's experience to a more friendly character.  A lot can be said with a smile or comic roll of the eyes to take the sting out of words that are true or not.  When it is in this form, it just gets mean.  I love to argue, my wife says that I would be fine arguing with myself, a mirror and a tape recorder.  I don't mean ill to anybody here, if we were in person, I would be hopping up and down, shouting and smiling, and probably buying the beer.  These forums are great for communication, but they aren't very good for empathy.  Body language is a bigger part of our world than a lot of people think.

Edited August 18, 2020 by Ringandpinion

[yalgaar 40]

1 minute ago, Ringandpinion said:

Take it from an old guy that isn't accustomed to posting on a forum as a form of communication.  I this group were sitting around in a room having this debate, the body language would most likely change everybody's experience to a more friendly character.  A lot can be said with a smile or comic roll of the eyes to take the sting out of words that are true or not.  When it is in this form, it just gets mean.  I love to argue, my wife says that I would be fine arguing with myself, a mirror and a tape recorder.  I don't mean ill to anybody here, if we were in person, I would be hopping up and down, shouting and smiling, and probably buying the beer.  These forums are great for communication, but they aren't very good for empathy.  Body language is a bigger part of our world than a lot of people think.

Very well said @Ringandpinion

I am sure going to grab a beer in a few! Cheers to you! 🙂

Maybe we should have zoom meeting setup and talk about these things. I am sure a lot of things that has been said the way it was said about be quite different and would beinterpretedd in a more positive way.

 

[Kim 7,943]

On 8/18/2020 at 5:51 PM, Tniko said:

I absolutely agree with you and I am sorry for appearing as the bad person that sours the soup here. But I cannot help but have a bitter laugh everytime I get the newsletter with the “due to strong demand the service will be soon closed for new members”. Every other month. And then I read this post about this guy having the exact same experience. So I am sharing my opinion which of course is directed only to people being in similar positions. To all other happy Kim followers I am wishing all the best...

Since you continue spreading misinformation, I feel I have to address it.

We close the service every few months in order to limit the number of members and provide the best service to existing members. I challenge you to find another service provider who is willing to sacrifice his income in order to provide a better experience for his members.

We re open the service because members cancel. And they cancel for different reasons (new job, too busy, too lazy, family reasons, wrong expectations etc.), and simply because as others mentioned, there is no perfect product and there are always happy clients and not so happy clients. This is the truth. So we have to find a balance between limiting the number of members, but still allowing new people to benefit from what we provide and have a "new blood".

Of course there is no way to satisfy everyone, and even when you do all you can for your members, some people still accuse you in hidden motives and "smart marketing". If you consider 1-2 updates per month "smart marketing, I suggest you use the "Unsubscribe" button at the bottom of each email.

[swsam 51]

I am a relative new member here and see this service for what it is, an educational course with live trades examples and the ability to discuss them with a like minded community. I don't expect or frankly care to perform as well or the same as the official returns, for the most part I don't even enter official trades unless it fits with my own strategy.  Or the sectors/symbols that I like investing in and a myriad of other factors. So far, I learned a great deal directly and indirectly from SO and see a good ROI from both trades and knowledge accumulation.

@Tniko the truth, is that about 90% of options traders will either breakeven or lose money. 9% will make profits within 1/2 a standard deviation from just holding long term S&P index and the top 1% will consistently beat yearly returns. The same applies to any competitive sport or business, 90% will give up and stop playing, 9% will be considered average or good players and the top 1% the pro athletes will thrive. The copy and paste approach doesn't work for options... there are no shortcuts. Don't expect to look or learn how a marathon runner is running and expect to be able to run the marathon faster or even at the same pace. A person search for a one solution fix all or the "holy grail" is futile, there is no such a thing. The only thing that works is hard work, dedication and continuous learning. Every athlete will tell you the same. 

[Kim 7,943]

8 minutes ago, yalgaar said:

@Kim

I am not new to trading nor to Options trading. I just didn't find a way to consistently profit from what I have been doing all these years. I have a very long background in risk management and position sizing due to my Forex trading experience. I just feel intentionally or not the official trade performance page just suggests same/similar or better performance can be achieved by the members and still being suggested. But that is really far from truth due to many reasons. I am not criticizing you personally, I am just stating my experience here so far. I have sure learnt a lot and still intend to learn much more from here as time permit me from my super crazy schedule. All I ask is better disclaimers so no new members get a false expectations like me. 

I also think some improvements can be made in the current format. I will put something together as soon as I get more time. I mean I notice there are many many questions just being repeated from many members including me about why certain trade was taken in certain way. I believe this is due to the some of the pages where the original strategy is described is either outdated or needs more details. Even thought it has been described very well but due to the dynamics and complexities of each trade, it sure needs improvements.

Thank you @yalgaar You are more than welcome to suggest concrete changes and improvements to the service format.

As for expectations - I believe that anyone who takes few minutes to read the service description can see that we are being as open and transparent as possible. As you could see from some of the comments, there are members that actually achieve similar performance, but we never said it would be easy. We could have much more members by doing "clever marketing" and promise what other services promise, but we will never do it.

[Kim 7,943]

7 minutes ago, swsam said:

 

@Tniko the truth, is that about 90% of options traders will either breakeven or lose money. 9% will make profits within 1/2 a standard deviation from just holding long term S&P index and the top 1% will consistently beat yearly returns. The same applies to any competitive sport or business, 90% will give up and stop playing, 9% will be considered average or good players and the top 1% the pro athletes will thrive. The copy and paste approach doesn't work for options... there are no shortcuts. Don't expect to look or learn how a marathon runner is running and expect to be able to run the marathon faster or even at the same pace. A person search for a one solution fix all or the "holy grail" is futile, there is no such a thing. The only thing that works is hard work, dedication and continuous learning. Every athlete will tell you the same. 

Couldn't say it better. For some reason people get insulted when I compare trading to engineering or medicine, but the truth is there is no difference.In fact, trading is more difficult. If you are good in engineering, you are most probably will be successful. In trading no matter how good you are, there still will be periods of losing streaks or low returns.