Anderson317 5 Report post Posted March 26, 2019 (edited) This morning I got an email from Tradier saying that I have been labeled as a pattern day trader and I have some questions. First, does each leg of an option trade count as a separate day trade? The only way I can see that I made four or more day trades in five days is that I had two double calendar trades that I opened and closed on the same day. One was on Friday and one was yesterday. I did leg out of these so I'm not sure if those each count as separate trade also. Any clarification on the rule as it applies to multiple legs of an option trade would be appreciated. Second, Tradier said in their email that I could request an exception to this determination if an exception hasn't been requested within the past 90 days. Does anyone know what is required to obtain this exception? Third, how should I try to avoid this designation in the future? It's not really a problem to make the deposit to get over $25k, but I'd rather keep this account small. Edit: Also, I got another email from Tradier this morning that says that I have options in my account that are expiring today. There are no options that expire on Tuesday to my knowledge and none that I own. Did anyone else get an email like this? I Edited March 26, 2019 by Anderson317 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
trader212 36 Report post Posted March 26, 2019 @Anderson317 Beware Tradier and PDT, they do it weird ... I got hit even though my account was > $100,000, they suddenly shut me down for new trades when I urgently needed to make an adjustment even though I had tons of margin and cash ... had to call them and get an exception so I could trade, but they warned me that I was liable for the max margin PDT thing and I might have to meet a "fake" PDT cash margin call ... fortunately that did not happen. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
akito 184 Report post Posted March 26, 2019 (edited) @Anderson317 1. For spreads, Tradier treats each option leg separately for their PDT logic and calculation. If you had 2 separate calendar trades that were open and closed on the same day, that would be 2 legs on the first calendar and then 2 legs on the second calendar. So 4 "trades" in one day regardless of how your option legs were setup in spreads. So your guess as to how this happened is right on the mark. This is also what I learned from asking Tradier directly. 2. To remove the PDT status, just email them and ask them to remove it. Simple as that. You can do it once every 90 days. I know because that is what they said and exactly what I did. (I've removed it once so far) 3. To avoid PDT status, don't open and close more than 4 options in a single day. Remember to count each option leg separately in your spreads. -Note that the actual number of option contracts would not matter. (as least that is my understanding) For example, if you had a calendar position with 42 of the short leg and 42 of the long leg, and you opened and closed it on the same day, that should be 2 day "trades". For future questions, try asking Tradier directly, they're pretty quick with responses and not bad with their customer service. (Unless you're asking for opinions on steadyoptions. If so, then feel free to ask away. I'm always up for discussion.) EDIT: Regarding your message about options expiring today, you should ask Tradier directly as such a message makes no sense at all for today, a Tuesday. Edited March 26, 2019 by akito spacing issues 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TrustyJules 3,212 Report post Posted March 26, 2019 28 minutes ago, trader212 said: @Anderson317 Beware Tradier and PDT, they do it weird ... I got hit even though my account was > $100,000, they suddenly shut me down for new trades when I urgently needed to make an adjustment even though I had tons of margin and cash ... had to call them and get an exception so I could trade, but they warned me that I was liable for the max margin PDT thing and I might have to meet a "fake" PDT cash margin call ... fortunately that did not happen. I got hit even though my account was > $100,000, !!! How is that possible - the limit is set by the exchanges at 25,000$ I regularly trade friday expirations and will have between 6-16 day trades at any one time on those days. Never had a message from TW. Of course my account is over 25K/ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
trader212 36 Report post Posted March 26, 2019 @TrustyJules As I said, Tradier does it weird and nasty (hopefully they will reform). Read the official Finra doc, I will try to attach ... I think Tradier is going by the "letter of the law" on this, and it seems to say that the $25k thing is only applicable to whether or not you can actually BE a pattern day trader. Anyway on the phone with Tradier they insisted on this "fact" over and over again, saying they know exactly what they are talking about ... PDT rules apply to RegT margin accounts whether you have $25k or $25mm of net liq. Main difference is, the more net liq you have the greater the "Day Trade Buying Power" ... so I jacked my account up to $250k to get some breathing room, but it still sucks, for example if you are day trading stocks you can use up $1mm in PDT buying power in a few minutes. I had a dim bulb on this because all my trading accounts for the last 15-20 years have been portfolio margin ... it was all a rude surprise to me. Finra_PDT_rules.pdf Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
akito 184 Report post Posted March 26, 2019 34 minutes ago, trader212 said: Beware Tradier and PDT, they do it weird ... I got hit even though my account was > $100,000 4 minutes ago, TrustyJules said: I got hit even though my account was > $100,000, Not sure if my understanding is complete, but I think you can still be marked as a pattern day trader if you're over $25,000. However, you should still be able to freely trade with no issues. It would just be a status mark on your account. When I was last marked as PDT, I was also over $25,000, but didn't see any practical issues with trading. So I'm not sure why you weren't able to open new positions, @trader212. That's bizarre. Did they give any reasoning behind their restrictions on your account? Also, when did this happen? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
trader212 36 Report post Posted March 26, 2019 @akito Everything you guys are saying is what I always understood for "normal" brokers. The issue is Tradier, they are weird. The trading restrictions are activated when you have used up your "Day Trade Buying Power" for that day ... see the Finra doc attached above. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
trader212 36 Report post Posted March 26, 2019 @akito Happened the week of Feb 22nd ... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TrustyJules 3,212 Report post Posted March 26, 2019 Ok I get why it never happens to me - I dont trade on margin. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
trader212 36 Report post Posted March 26, 2019 @TrustyJules The day it was so much trouble for me I was just trading the options stuff traded in this group, with plenty of cash on hand and way, way more "Option Buying Power" than I was using ... on the phone they said it was just because I used up my "Day Trading Buying Power", at top right on the Command Center Screen. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chris Lepore 2 Report post Posted April 3, 2019 Hi Everyone, Chris here at Tradier Brokerage. Tradier Brokerage follows the industry guidelines for Pattern Day Trading as enforced by our clearing firm Apex. For any specific questions regarding these rules or your account, please feel free to contact us: service@tradierbrokerage.com or 980-272-3880. Thank you for your business and we hope we can assist with whatever you may need. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
