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Kim

Tradier Brokerage Special Offer

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We are pleased to announce that we have reached an agreement with Tradier Brokerage to provide special commission structure for SteadyOptions clients.

 

Tradier offers a special $40/Month of Flat Price Trading for SteadyOptions Clients. For $40/month the SteadyOptions client can trade unlimited options trades and there will be no per trade commissions.

 

Conditions:

  1. This offer for commission free  option trades is valid for new accounts opened at Tradier Brokerage and funded with a $5,000 minimum within 30 days of account opening.
  2. Your account will be charged a monthly subscription fee of $40 at the beginning of each month for this promotion.
  3. Subscription excludes other fees such as options exercise and assignments.
  4. Tradier Brokerage passes along all exchange and regulatory fees. 
  5. Applicable minimums may apply. 
  6. This special offer valid for Tradier Brokerage accounts funded within 30 days of account opening with $5,000 or more. 

Click here to take advantage of this offer.

 

Note: Tradier started to support international accounts in Feb-18. Please send a note to service@tradierbrokerage.com or call (980) 272-3880 and they will work with you to open an account electronically (they then send you online Docusign application link to for account opening and request supporting docs).

 

The deal includes IRA accounts too. They offer Limited Margin IRA accounts where customers can trade option spreads of any type as long as they are covered. They cannot trade naked calls. IRA accounts can only be opened with level 2 options, but customers can complete 2 forms via DocuSign after the account is opened and they can upgrade the account to a Limited Margin IRA with level 3 options trading. For your reference, here are these DocuSign links:

 

Options

Limited Margin

 

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@SteadyOptions Do I get this right :

If we take for instance your account last year, you had around 12K in comm.

With Tradiers offer this would be 480USD +  exchange and regulatory fees. Is this right ?

 

How much are exchange and regulatory fees per contract ? 10/15 cents ?

 

 

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Exchange and regulatory fees vary between exchanges, but I believe it is less than 0.10 on average. Probably somewhere between 0.05-0.10.

 

I'm not sure about other questions, still waiting for response from Dan Raju, co-founder and chairman of Tradier.

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2 minutes ago, Skylimit said:

Do they have iPhone app?

Im told they have a crappy mobile platform but that they do have one.  Im actually using livevol-x but they clear through IB and you can use IB's platforms if desired.

 

$40 flat fee is way better though

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48 minutes ago, RapperT said:

Im told they have a crappy mobile platform but that they do have one.  Im actually using livevol-x but they clear through IB and you can use IB's platforms if desired.

 

$40 flat fee is way better though

Sounds complicated.

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its not.  I dont want to hjikack this thread but there is a lot of discussion in the brokers and commissions thread.  LiveVolX is just a platform that clears through IB.  Result is a better trading platform with IB's industry best pricing.

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Got some answers from Tradier team (they are not allowed to post directly here):

 

 

Q. How much are exchange and regulatory fees per contract ? 10/15 cents ?

A. There are exchange fees that are passed along when you purchase or sell an option contract. The primary fee that is charged on each option transaction is the ORF or Options Regulatory Fee. This fee does fluctuate over time, but the ORF fee currently stands at about $0.05/contract. When selling options contracts, a TAF fee also applies. This fee also fluctuates over time, but currently stands at about $0.01/contract sold.

Index Option fees currently range from $0.18/contract - $0.60/contract but only apply on these symbols: DXL, EPX, HGX, MNX, MVR, OEX, OSX, RUT, SOX, SPX, SVO, UTY, VIX, XAU, XEO and XDE.

 

Q. Also, what are the margin requirements and margin interest? Do they allow VIX/SPX calendars (without exorbitant margin requirements). Also, how is their reputation on execution quality

A. Margin requirement are consistent with the brokerage industry for the various types of option strategies.  Unfortunately, Tradier Brokerage does not allow calendar spreads on index options.  Expiration dates have to be the same.  Tradier Brokerage is held to the same Best Execution standards within the securities industry.

 

Q. With Tradiers offer this would be 480USD +  exchange and regulatory fees. Is this right ?

A.  That is correct.

 

Q. Hi Kim, looks great, but what about futures and options to futures (CME)? They allow that?

A. Current, Tradier Brokerage does not offer futures and options on futures.

 

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35 minutes ago, SteadyOptions said:

Unfortunately, Tradier Brokerage does not allow calendar spreads on index options.

I just don't understand this. I'd be very interested in their explanation of why not. I've previously read other folks saying OptionHouse told them because of Finra, if that's the case I'd love to hear them point out where this is written..

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My guess is, since these are cash settled and cannot be exercised early, theoretically front month could lose money much more heavily than the long month. In american style options that risk does not arise because the ability to early exercise keeps arb between the front and long month under control. Not sure how IB manages this risk. I am sure if the short front leg starts getting really out of whack from the long, they'll jack up the margin.

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2 hours ago, anand331 said:

My guess is, since these are cash settled and cannot be exercised early, theoretically front month could lose money much more heavily than the long month. In american style options that risk does not arise because the ability to early exercise keeps arb between the front and long month under control. Not sure how IB manages this risk. I am sure if the short front leg starts getting really out of whack from the long, they'll jack up the margin.

Thanks, that actually makes sense. Should have though of it since I don't trade calendars on the VIX for the same reason, but I guess its extreme daily moves made me more aware of that risk as opposed to the SPX which does so (relatively) rarely. I would guess that in practice, this would only be an issue if you held till expiration of both strikes, if you just close when such a large move occurs the price increase on your backdate option should have increased to offset such a loss.

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As a practical matter, I agree with you, but think about it. Your short leg is expiring tomorrow and IV is going through the rough. The long leg is a month away and it is normal to expect that since volatility reverts to mean over time, the long leg will be priced differently. There really is nothing magical about VIX. Why does backwardation occur? It is the fear for the front month that is excessive but it is anticipated that over a month it will normalize. Now SPX options have huge liquidity, so under normal circumstances, you will not see any issues, but the probability is distinctly there.

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So I always already typing this before @anand331 reponded, my thoughts are the same. Theoretically: if the SPX is at 2000, I sell a 10 jul puts at 2000, and go long 10 2000 august. Now the market collapses and goes to 1800 with a day to expiration. Maybe IB detects this would cost me 400K, which would put me on margin call. but what can they do?  They can't exercise the remaining long leg to flatten my margin, so they can only sell it. But that assumes the long put is worth the difference, and that may not be so.

 

I'll have a look at the worst crash we have in recent options data on 2008-10-15 and see what happens to a theoretical calendar for kicks.

Edited by Ordos

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You are missing one major point (sorry for not mentioning it earlier):

 

VIX options are based on futures, SPX options are based on SPX index. So VIX front month options can trade higher than back month when VIX is in backwardation. For SPX, this is irrelevant - options are based on the same index, so front options cannot be more expensive than back options. Not theoretically and not practically. It works exactly the same as options on stocks. This is why there is no margin requirement when you buy SPX or RUT calendars - you cannot lose more than the debit paid. And if you don't close it on expiration day, the broker always has an option to liquidate it (as a spread or one by one).

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So I'm pretty sure it's not Finra regulations, otherwise no broker would allow calendars on indexes.

 

My guess is that they can't (or won't) monitor your position before short leg expiration - which is what they need to do to protect themselves from big losses if you don't liquidate the position before the short leg expires. In case of stocks, it is not an issue - worst case, short leg is assigned, you might get long (or short) big amount of stock and still get a margin call, but at least your stock is protected by the long leg in case the stock makes a big move the next day. In case of cash settlement, you can lose big time if the index moves against your long leg the next day and you don't have the short leg anymore. And if you don't have enough money in your account, your loss becomes broker's loss. Which of course they don't want to happen.

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8 minutes ago, SteadyOptions said:

So I'm pretty sure it's not Finra regulations, otherwise no broker would allow calendars on indexes.

 

My guess is that they can't (or won't) monitor your position before short leg expiration - which is what they need to do to protect themselves from big losses if you don't liquidate the position before the short leg expires. In case of stocks, it is not an issue - worst case, short leg is assigned, you might get long (or short) big amount of stock and still get a margin call, but at least your stock is protected by the long leg in case the stock makes a big move the next day. In case of cash settlement, you can lose big time if the index moves against your long leg the next day and you don't have the short leg anymore. And if you don't have enough money in your account, your loss becomes broker's loss. Which of course they don't want to happen.

Appreciate the reply, this makes sense as to why some brokers do and some don't. I'm still not sure I can wrap my head around why SPX options can't theoretically undergo backwardation, but I'll give it another mental shot tomorrow at a more godly hour. Thanks :)

Edited by Ordos

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Options cannot go into backwardation, only futures can. This is relevant only for VIX because VIX futures can go to backwardation.

 

Example:

 

VIX Sep futures are at 25

VIX Oct futures are at 20

You have Oct/Sep 20 call calendar. Oct 20 call options might be worth only time value, while Sep 20 options will be worth $5 plus some time value. In this case Oct calls will be worth less than Sep calls. 

 

SPX options are based on the index not the futures. So if the index is at 2175, all options will be based on the same index. Which means that back options CANNOT be worth less than front options. They always will be worth more.

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11 hours ago, Paul said:

It seems they are also offering OptionNetExplorer for free if you trade more than 150 options contracts and a minimum of 20 tickets. 

You can't get ONE discount if you take the $40 flat fee deal.

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I would like to write about my impression of Tradier after using them for a couple of weeks.

0. The promo $40/mo flat fee is great. It allows to be 1 cent per spread with 2 legs more agressive and still 'outperform' those who place trades in IB.

1. They do care and reply emails very fast. I asked all sorts of questions about transfers, reimbursement of wire transfers, why bid-ask is different from IB, etc. Personal attention, very good feeling regarding their support.

2. The tools they list at https://brokerage.tradier.com/platforms are either expensive to try or just suck for options. I tried several. The notable exception is ONE (option net explorer, Kim posted a discount to that tool somewhere in forums.). ONE integrates well with Tradier, but I need to adjust the fill prices in ONE after the order is filled if the price changed after playing with the order in Tradier. But there is a way to push the trade to Tradier from ONE without 'commit', which allows to wait and enter the real price, and do it only once. (ONE's support is also awesome, by the way. They are working on a tighter integration, they told me. Judging by their progress so far, it might happen in a couple of years... They are a small company.)

One nice thing about ONE-Tradier compared to ONE-IB integration is that you do not need to keep the 2nd client open besides ONE. The Tradier's api is much more contemporary and does not require any client like IB demands.

3. Tradier's own web site is decent. Even on the go, in a horizontal layout on a larger phone, it is possible to enter spread orders, and it is MUCH more straightforward process than, for example, in IB TWS Mobile app.
Monitoring open positions on Tradier's web site is hard, they do not combine legs into spreads in that particular view. If you are a programmer, their API is nice and clean. I wrote a python script that combines legs for me. Monitoring the open positions in ONE is a pleasure, unless they go south, of course.

4. Liquidity (part 1). 
There is no statistical significance yet in my observations. The first reason for that is that I did not place enough trades with them to be able to make conclusions.  The second reason is that I was unaware of the different way IB presents bid/ask values from how it is done in Tradier, and that confused me for a while.

Judging by few trades, I would say that fills in IB are faster. However, since the promo 40/mo flat allows to be more agressive, I will experiment with that more. No real conclusions yet.

5. Liquidity (part 2).
The first 2 snapshots below are for the same trade in ToS Mobile (vertical) and Tradier. I see that the numbers are the same, including the size values. If those numbers would directly translate to fills, then one might expect similar fills in Tradier and ToS.

The last 2 snapshots below are for the same trade in IB and Tradier. The bid-ask numbers for individual legs are the same, BUT the bid-ask values for the whole spread are calculated differently in IB. I do not know how they come up with those numbers in IB (weighted average?), but of course it is much easier to enter the position at IB's calculated mid! I was not aware of that for a while and thought the liquidity of something is not right in Tradier, until I started placing trades side by side.
Besides that, the sizes are slightly better in IB (check the last 2 pics), which probably should translate to some added liquidity. (Tradier routes their orders through Citadel Securities and Knight Securities, if you are interested.)
 

Overall, for the unsuspecting traders like myself, IB's way of calculating whole spread bid-asks (and mids) makes an impression that it is easier to fill orders in IB, because their mids are higher than in ToS and Tradier, and (can you imagine) it is easier to get the fill for the higher price. 


-------
I will try to place some more trades side by side and report back. So far, I like Tradier a lot. I hope their business model, open API etc will keep them competitive.

IMG_6800.PNG

Screenshot 2016-12-14 09.32.49.png

Screenshot 2016-12-14 12.43.28.png

Screenshot 2016-12-14 12.43.33.png

Edited by mglaezer

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On 12/14/2016 at 2:24 PM, mglaezer said:

ONE integrates well with Tradier, but I need to adjust the fill prices in ONE after the order is filled if the price changed after playing with the order in Tradier. But there is a way to push the trade to Tradier from ONE without 'commit', which allows to wait and enter the real price, and do it only once. (ONE's support is also awesome, by the way. They are working on a tighter integration, they told me. Judging by their progress so far, it might happen in a couple of years... They are a small company.)

 

 

glaezer, thanks for the comprehensive review.

 

I'm not sure I understand; I thought ONE was the UI, so why play w/prices in Tradier?

 

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4 hours ago, Noah Katz said:

 

 

glaezer, thanks for the comprehensive review.

 

I'm not sure I understand; I thought ONE was the UI, so why play w/prices in Tradier?

 

 

After you enter the order in ONE, it opens Tradier web site in the browser with the order pre-populated in the form. Once you place the order, it does not necessarily get executed at the price you want. Or it can be partially executed. This means that the order price and size should be adjusted in ONE. They are not able at the moment to do it automatically. The way I found it less disturbing is described in my post above.

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So far it has been 40+ days since I started using Tradier. Comparing them with IB - I found that liquidity is better on IB, placing orders side by side in both brokers.

However, taking the advantage of $40/mo flat rate, sometimes placing order more aggressively in Tradier (1-2 cents per spread) when necessary and still matching Kim's performance after commission, I found that I prefer Tradier.

ONE+Tradier is a very decent combo, however I currently just use Tradier web UI on my computer and phone. 

 

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On 8/31/2016 at 7:17 AM, Kim said:
  1. This special offer valid for Tradier Brokerage non-IRA accounts funded within 30 days of account opening with $5,000 or more. 

 

I called them and asked about this; the offer is also valid for IRA's

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On 1/27/2017 at 0:24 AM, mglaezer said:

So far it has been 40+ days since I started using Tradier. Comparing them with IB - I found that liquidity is better on IB, placing orders side by side in both brokers.

However, taking the advantage of $40/mo flat rate, sometimes placing order more aggressively in Tradier (1-2 cents per spread) when necessary and still matching Kim's performance after commission, I found that I prefer Tradier.

ONE+Tradier is a very decent combo, however I currently just use Tradier web UI on my computer and phone. 

 

I've contacted Tradier and still find it hard to believe they can do this price structure.

Can you please confirm the total fees you pay per contract?  They claim:

Quote

Yes, you pay the ORF and TAF fees on all options and they are about $0.04-$0.05/contract when you buy and sell.  For the index options like SPX and RUT, add $0.53/contract and $0.18/contract respectively to each buy and sell.

So that's about $0.045/contract for most of Kim's trades, $0.58/contract for SPX, and $0.23/contract for RUT.  Seems far too good to be true.  Much better than the excellent rate I have at TOS or even the new offering at TastyWorks (TastyTrade's new brokerage).

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I

8 hours ago, ChadK said:

I've contacted Tradier and still find it hard to believe they can do this price structure.

Can you please confirm the total fees you pay per contract?  They claim:

So that's about $0.045/contract for most of Kim's trades, $0.58/contract for SPX, and $0.23/contract for RUT.  Seems far too good to be true.  Much better than the excellent rate I have at TOS or even the new offering at TastyWorks (TastyTrade's new brokerage).

 

I  talked to Tradier today and was quoted those same amounts.

 

That's in addition to the $40/mo per account.

 

An amazing deal.

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14 hours ago, mglaezer said:

Let's see, I just closed 6 AMZN calendars and paid $0.67 total fee. This translates to $0.055 per contract.

Thanks for the confirmation.  I'll be opening an account to see how it goes.  I traded 1600 contracts in January, so even if I move a fraction of my trading over, it will be a sizable savings.

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I'm looking to open a new account.  I have an invitation request in with TastyWorks, but will also consider IB or Tradier.   With rates like these, paying for ONE and even other services would be a no-brainer.  Are there any Tradier customers that have had a problem or would recommend against it??

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I was moment away from sending some funds to Tradier, but I'm now having cold feet.  Here's why:

 

I looked at my trading for the last year.  My thought was to move all of my options trading to Tradier, and keep my big SPX and RUT trades at TOS/TDA.  Looking at that, excluding RUT & SPX, I had 1100 multi-legged trades last year, totaling 2600 legs.  As it's near tax-time again, I thought about tax accounting for all of the trades.  I use TradeLog to import and match all of my TOS trades.  I went to the TradeLog website to see if Tradier was supported.  Tradier was not listed as a supported brokerage, but they did have CSV import supported from Apex Clearing, which is who Tradier clears trades through.  Of course, if you're not using TradeLog, there's always TurboTax, etc., but using the brokerage supplied 1099-B alone is a recipe for failure.  So, I contacted Tradier to confirm that customers would be able to download the CSV files from either them, or directly from Apex.  They replied:

 

Quote

I checked with our tax department and unfortunately, we do not have access to the CSV files from Apex. No particular reason was given other than Apex doesn’t give out that information.

Sincerely,

Michael Petrone

Customer Service Representative

 

I've followed up with some questions regarding downloading of trade data (for tax purposes) but they haven't responded yet.  I can post an update as soon as I hear back.  I did inform them that I am not manually typing 2600 trades into my tax tools, and considered this a no-go for me and that I'd close my account instead of funding it if they have no other methods of downloading the data.

 

A couple other observations, without even doing any trading:

 

I looked at their web interface.  It is very clunky and minimalist.  This is how they save money...they don't spend money on fancy coding development, but instead have many, many partners that can provide a front-end.  In looking at how to enter an order through their web interface, I saw that it would take entering in 13 pieces of information in order to trade a two-legged trade (calendar, vertical, straddle, strangle, etc.)  For a 4 legged trade, it would be 23 pieces of information that you'd need to enter manually.  This is very laborious, and can be subject to errors.  If you think you're going to trade through their free web-interface, this is something to consider.  This wasn't going to be acceptable for me, so I was planning on using OptionNetExplorer, which I've used before and it great.  There are several discounts available, such as the one from Tradier that is $55/month to have the ONE software.  SteadyOptions also has a deal with ONE.

 

One other observation that wasn't a deal-breaker, but was weird.  Tradier limits ACH (bank cash transfers) to $25,000 maximum in or out in a day.  If you want to fund your account with $100k, then you either need to spend the money on a wire transfer, or send four daily $25k transfers.  Again, no biggie, but weird to have a limit.

 

Edited by ChadK

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Thanks @ChadK, that is some very good information.  How could a modern brokerage even survive without support for downloading the trade data into tax software?  They might not...I took that for granted.  That's definitely a non-starter.

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They have just emailed me with a follow-up:

Quote

Although Apex does not make a CSV file available, they do integrate with TurboTax, Tax Act and H&R Block.  Those would be the options for electronic tax records at this time.  They may do more in the future and I’ll mention to them that customers are looking for a direct CSV file download.

I'm still a little hesitant, as those aren't the best tools for serious amounts of option trades.

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1 hour ago, ChadK said:

One other observation that wasn't a deal-breaker, but was weird.  Tradier limits ACH (bank cash transfers) to $25,000 maximum in or out in a day.  If you want to fund your account with $100k, then you either need to spend the money on a wire transfer, or send four daily $25k transfers.  Again, no biggie, but weird to have a limit.

 

I had the same issue with them: did 2 transfers within 2 day to overcome this 25K/day limit. They emailed me and offered to reimburse the wire transfer fee if I want to do it in one shot. My suggestion is to ask if they can do the same for you.

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3 hours ago, ChadK said:

One other observation that wasn't a deal-breaker, but was weird.  Tradier limits ACH (bank cash transfers) to $25,000 maximum in or out in a day.  If you want to fund your account with $100k, then you either need to spend the money on a wire transfer, or send four daily $25k transfers.  Again, no biggie, but weird to have a limit.

 

As another data point, I finally received my invite for TastyWorks.  Their ACH is limited to $250,000 per day.

 

1 hour ago, mglaezer said:

I had the same issue with them: did 2 transfers within 2 day to overcome this 25K/day limit. They emailed me and offered to reimburse the wire transfer fee if I want to do it in one shot. My suggestion is to ask if they can do the same for you.

 

Good point.

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1 hour ago, ChadK said:

@mglaezer Did you trade with Tradier in 2016, and if so, how did you do your taxes?  Also, do you trade using their web interface, or one of their partner programs?

Taxes - not yet, I need to wait till April for various reasons.

I trade using their web interface now, however I liked using ONE. Unfortunately, besides being windows-only program (and me using a mac laptop these days and not liking using ONE under Parallels windows emulator), ONE is not mobile (and I am getting Kim's notifications often during commutes). If any of these 2 conditions were not true, I would continue using ONE.

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I'm in a similar situation...I use a Mac.  Although I do have Parallels, I don't like to run Windows programs unless I absolutely have no other choice.  Every time I start Windows, it takes 30 minutes while it patches itself and reboots multiple times.

In any case, has anyone tried any of the other software recommended by Tradier?

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On 12/14/2016 at 5:24 PM, mglaezer said:

I wrote a python script that combines legs for me

I am also giving this Tradier deal a shot and using ONE. But yes it is really painful to keep track of the positions, correct fills, etc.

Even though I am not a developer I can do some programming, would you mind giving me just a quick jump start on what you this to get this script implemented please? I will truly appreciate it.

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2 minutes ago, asteroids said:

Even though I am not a developer I can do some programming, would you mind giving me just a quick jump start on what you this to get this script implemented please? I will truly appreciate it.

The API they provide is very good: https://developer.tradier.com/documentation

If you call/email them, they will give you your personal key, so that you do not need to worry about oath 2.0 authentication, which would be necessary if you developed software for somebody else. It is an important point, and will save a lot of time.

Then you can use their /positions and /quotes API to get what you currently have open and the current prices (both underlying and options).

Then you will need to use some heuristics to combine the legs into positions (date/time mostly). If the straddles are rolled, it gets complicated, as the positions need to be combined differently and the cost basis changes. But even without those complications with rolls, the information you get is already good enough and not less helpful than what, for example, TOS mobile provides.

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Just fyi, after inspecting some trade confirmation statements, Tradier subtly started passing through a 0.05 per contract "OCC clearing fee" yesterday.  Here was their reply when I inquired about it:

 

There is an OCC fee of $0.05/contract, with a max of $55, that Tradier Brokerage is now passing through to customers.  We have been covering this fee since it was first introduced, but we are no longer doing so.  Unfortunately, this is a fee that will apply going forward for option transactions.    Please see the OCC link below for further information. 

 

https://www.theocc.com/membership/schedule-of-fees/

 

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